Why can't people understand.

[Bailey0703]

It's NOT about Covid per se . It's about space !!!

If YOUR hospital has 30 critical care beds ... and YOUR granny /mother /child has ANY emergency that requires THAT bed / doctor ... but can't get in it because some stupid fucker thought THEIR need for going out to meet their mates was more important.. how WOULD YOU FEEL ??

Put yourselves in THAT position. What is YOUR priority ?

Money ?
Income ?
Job ?
Social life ?

Don't know about you lot but I would rather be on the street destitute , if any of MY children's lives were on the line Money doesn't come in to it...

I can say that as someone with no savings and £2.20 in the bank atm ..(renting) .. so no secret slush fund to fall back on ...

and @MadameMeursault it is not money versus lives, it never has been. It is lives versus lives. Covid does not get to be the altar upon which we sacrifice all other health conditions.

Five people are killed every day in the UK as a result of car accidents. It's tragically sad for them and their families, but we can't just suddenly ban the use of vehicles and all return to a 19th Century way of life.

It's the same with a virus that doesn't seriously (sometimes even noticeably) affect virtually everybody who gets it.

We need to be as safe as we reasonably can, but still live lives that we consider are actually worth living.

@MaxNormal

That's why everything that could be done, should be done to preserve lives.

Funny how that never bothered anyone before covid. Millions of preventable deaths globally, many of them children. Out of sight, out of mind, not in the news, no fucks given.

Its always bothered me. I've never changed my name on here and I've posted for years. Feel free to check.

Are all humans born equal?
Liberalism says they are.
Do we have equal opportunities?
Liberalism says we do.
Are all lives of equal value?
Liberalism says they are.

Liberalism is the philosophy that upholds and underpins western thinking and capitalism.

Funny how no one actually subscribes to these values when faced with having to make real sacrifices for the good of others, suddenly not all lives are equal.

Funny too that Covid brings it back to us that we can not act freely without our actions impacting others. But Liberalism would have us believe its possible to follow our desires as long as we harm no other person. Impossible isn't it?

Funny too, that capitalism far from supporting human life, dignity, continuity, and joy, precisely at the point that human life is in peril is the very system that dictates your life can not be put first.

A social system made by humans that can not withstand humans putting life first. Its a system not fit for purpose. Its in direct contradiction with life itself!

But as you will with the selfish bleating.

How do you know Granny isn't out playing canasta with her mates? Or bingo?

🥱

@CoronaBollox

Is my child likely to die or be negatively impacted for the rest if their lives if they caught covid 19. Unlikely. Will they be more negatively impacted if jobs are lost, homeless with no money for food lack of education and be the ones paying in years to come, for this total shitshow? Absofuckinglutely.

Well said I am more worried about the economy for my kids !!! People either having heating or food if you have no money you can't live !

@Ibake

Here's an interesting chart for you. It shows deaths/million for 3 countries with very different lockdown strategies. Argentina, hard, hard lockdown from the start, us and Sweden. Look at where they have all ended up. It's a virus, behaving like a virus. We can do our very best in terms of distance and hand hygiene, indeed most of us have now for months on end but the attached shows that really it's in vain.

Bit odd there are only 3 countries on that graph. Would be interesting to see countries like South Korea, Singapore, New Zealand or even Australia on there.

@Bailey0703

It's NOT about Covid per se . It's about space !!!

If YOUR hospital has 30 critical care beds ... and YOUR granny /mother /child has ANY emergency that requires THAT bed / doctor ... but can't get in it because some stupid fucker thought THEIR need for going out to meet their mates was more important.. how WOULD YOU FEEL ??

Put yourselves in THAT position. What is YOUR priority ?

Money ?
Income ?
Job ?
Social life ?

Don't know about you lot but I would rather be on the street destitute , if any of MY children's lives were on the line Money doesn't come in to it...

I can say that as someone with no savings and £2.20 in the bank atm ..(renting) .. so no secret slush fund to fall back on ...

Spoken like someone who has NEVER been homeless

@Ibake

Here's an interesting chart for you. It shows deaths/million for 3 countries with very different lockdown strategies. Argentina, hard, hard lockdown from the start, us and Sweden. Look at where they have all ended up. It's a virus, behaving like a virus. We can do our very best in terms of distance and hand hygiene, indeed most of us have now for months on end but the attached shows that really it's in vain.

Alternatively we could look at the many countries who took effective containment measures.

Australia, New Zealand, the Isle of Man, Japan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Taiwan, Vietnam.

They all have much healthier economies.

Their lives are largely normal (bar foreign holidays, which you can live without).

Everything is open.

Schools undisrupted. Offices open. Hospitals running as routine. Bars, restaurants, pubs all open. Theatres open. Gyms open. Entertainment and sporting venues open. Beauty salons open.

All open as usual. Low number of deaths too. And fewer people at risk of potential long-term disability of Long Covid (which is affecting a significant proportion of the working age population - previously healthy people who had initial mild cases).

@StatisticalSense

I would happily see the NHS ration treatment and not just for corona virus. The NHS needs to stop keeping people alive at all costs and begin to accept that in many cases the best course of action is to minimise suffering while letting nature take it's course (or even helping nature along). It simply makes no sense to be spending significant resources on keeping 85 year olds who don't know where they are and can't get out of bed alive for another few years just so care home owners can continue to get rich on the misfortune of others and people can delay their grief by a few years.

So the NHS needs to euthanise anyone lacking in mental and physical capacity. Got it.

[quote Murcielago]@MaxNormal absolutely. Everyone shouting about selfishness has been aware of children dying all over the world/ floods/ famine etc. Have they spent their lives trying to help? Given up the things they enjoy to give all their time and money to save as many lives as possible? Have they done much more than drop a few pennies in a charity tin? Of course not. But that's what is expected for Covid - give up everything ( and without complaint) Now people fear for themselves and everyone who doesn't want to devote their lives to preventing Covid is selfish[/quote]
Totally agree with this too! Spot on.

Hit the nail on the head with that point. Millions die each year because famine or lack of clean water yet there’s no outpour to preserve life at all costs then.

Ironic that dying of hunger or lack of water is indiscriminate and affects all ages equally. Imagine if someone said ‘right, we’re going to help out in Africa and this is what is expected of us - we’ll close down the economy, no school, no friends or family visits, curfews, you could lose your job and home....

No one would be ok with that, there’d be a national uprising. So why all of a sudden is the expectation a completely logical request because of covid?

Why do we turn a blind eye in some cases but not others? Btw I’m ashamed that we do turn a blind eye and I hope at the end of all of this (if there is an end) every nation will come together and support the poorer nations where people die day in day out!!!

Don't know about you lot but I would rather be on the street destitute , if any of MY children's lives were on the line Money doesn't come in to it...

I treated people in hospital for a few decades. I can tell you with certainty your child is far more likely to end up in hospital due to living with you on the street destitute than they are due to Covid. So if this is your intention you are doing your children a real disservice.

Also, if you, your mum, your grandmother or your children need a hospital bed post Covid you will be pretty unlikely to achieve it unless things run with a certain amount of normality. How do you think hospital beds are funded? What do you think will happen in this regard if the economy tanks? Good luck with the hospital beds of the future.

There needs to be a certain trading off of things now in order for their to be a future where the NHS is remotely operational and yes, that will involve some Covid casualties now but that's the only way it's going to work.

Oh the faux concern for homeless people!

First, I suggest you focus your campaigning away from prolonging the economic damage, and instead call for housing for the many currently homeless.

They lost the roof over their heads before Covid - but equally through no fault of their own. Unfortunately few seemed to care much then.

Second, stop fighting for more homelessness. Anybody who cares about saving homes and jobs wants containment asap. Only those who aren't bothered would want to drag it out.

So the NHS needs to euthanise anyone lacking in mental and physical capacity. Got it.

There is a huge difference in euthanising someone and a decision being made that supportive care is not in the best interest. They are completely different things. You will need a thread of your own for that topic though .,........

But as you will with the selfish bleating.

I'll leave you to pat yourself on the back about your wonderful moral superiority then.

Nah. I'd rather my kids had a home, thank you. Preferring to be on the street, destitute, got old around March 24th.

@HoppingPavlova

So the NHS needs to euthanise anyone lacking in mental and physical capacity. Got it.

There is a huge difference in euthanising someone and a decision being made that supportive care is not in the best interest. They are completely different things. You will need a thread of your own for that topic though .,........

The poster I quoted said:

“the best course of action is to minimise suffering while letting nature take it's course (or even helping nature along)...”

If you are on the streets destitute, your child's life IS on the line

@SheepandCow

Oh the faux concern for homeless people!

First, I suggest you focus your campaigning away from prolonging the economic damage, and instead call for housing for the many currently homeless.

They lost the roof over their heads before Covid - but equally through no fault of their own. Unfortunately few seemed to care much then.

Second, stop fighting for more homelessness. Anybody who cares about saving homes and jobs wants containment asap. Only those who aren't bothered would want to drag it out.

Yes its strange that so many people are now concerned with homelessness and poverty. The tides rising around them, it suddenly becomes their new hobby horse.

@WhenSheWasBad It's a website that you can go on and look at all sorts of comparison countries and group how you like. I saw it on twitter earlier on today as someone was demonstrating using three countries with a hard, medium and soft approach and showing how they've ended up in a similar place.

You could plot and play with figures all night long. Another one would be to plot Japan and Peru which might surprise people as Peru had a brutally harsh lockdown and Japan didn't. Peru's deaths/million is 1037 and Japan's is 14. What there is though is an enormous number of countries that hover between 500 and 700 deaths/million with quite broad differences in their Covid strategies.

The NHS needs to stop keeping people alive at all costs and begin to accept that in many cases the best course of action is to minimise suffering while letting nature take it's course (or even helping nature along)

You say the NHS needs to minimise suffering. How would that be possible if there is no NHS due to it being overrun?

This is what I dont understand. It seems people are saying let old people die of covid, but where do they want them to die and how? At home alone gasping for air. On the pavement outside an A&E department that is overwhelmed. At the end of a telephone while ringing for an ambulance that never comes because none are available for days on end. Is that how we want to proceed?

It would be barbaric to let this virus free

Imagine if someone said 'right, we're going to help out in Africa and this is what is expected of us - we'll close down the economy, no friends or family visits, curfews

That is what's happened in many African countries. They had the foresight and common sense we lacked. They knew just how vital containment was.

Btw it's not humans that shut down the economies. It's Covid - albeit prolonged in places like England, where effective containment measures weren't taken.

Separate from economy. Imagine being so selfish to want to prevent somebody else from ever seeing their friend or family member again (because they died) because they couldn't go without for a temporary period. Selfish beyond words.

Back to the economy. Failure to contain is what keeps the economy shut down. Keep on copying an ostrich (but looking less cute), but the facts speak for themselves wrt the economies of the countries who have successfully contained.

@MaxNormal

But as you will with the selfish bleating.

I'll leave you to pat yourself on the back about your wonderful moral superiority then.

Thank you. I will. Because I stand by my opinion. Not all opinions are equal. I respect everyone's right to have an opinion, but I'm not obliged to respect that opinion.

ibake

It's a website that you can go on and look at all sorts of comparison countries and group how you like

Thanks. I still think it’s a bit odd only 3 countries were picked to try and prove a point that even if a country locks down hard initially- it still ends up with a Britain like death rate.
Especially when there are countries out there that have done really well with their Covid response.