Why can't people understand.

[Bailey0703]

It's NOT about Covid per se . It's about space !!!

If YOUR hospital has 30 critical care beds ... and YOUR granny /mother /child has ANY emergency that requires THAT bed / doctor ... but can't get in it because some stupid fucker thought THEIR need for going out to meet their mates was more important.. how WOULD YOU FEEL ??

Put yourselves in THAT position. What is YOUR priority ?

Money ?
Income ?
Job ?
Social life ?

Don't know about you lot but I would rather be on the street destitute , if any of MY children's lives were on the line Money doesn't come in to it...

I can say that as someone with no savings and £2.20 in the bank atm ..(renting) .. so no secret slush fund to fall back on ...

[squeekums]

Oh the faux concern for homeless people!

Not faux concern here
I HAVE been homeless
There is no way id allow it to happen to me again and NO WAY id allow my kid to be homeless

I find anyone who says "id rather be homeless" is clueless and NEVER been in that situation and has NO IDEA what it really means. Its a piss poor attempt at moral point scoring

Id challenge the OP to spend a week on the streets with NOTHING, see how many hours she lasts, better yet, do it while on your period, starting with no sanpro, in winter.

[SheepandCow]

They're not even hiding their fascist eugenics bent tonight.
helping nature take it's course!
Be careful what you wish for. Long Covid means there's a chance you too could become one of The Others aka The Vulnerable.

[Redolent]

@Flaxmeadow

The NHS needs to stop keeping people alive at all costs and begin to accept that in many cases the best course of action is to minimise suffering while letting nature take it's course (or even helping nature along)

You say the NHS needs to minimise suffering. How would that be possible if there is no NHS due to it being overrun?

This is what I dont understand. It seems people are saying let old people die of covid, but where do they want them to die and how? At home alone gasping for air. On the pavement outside an A&E department that is overwhelmed. At the end of a telephone while ringing for an ambulance that never comes because none are available for days on end. Is that how we want to proceed?

It would be barbaric to let this virus free

It’s not just the person suffering with covid who can’t get a bed. It’s the person with a heart attack who can’t be seen on time, or at all, because of covid.

There’s no public health without a functioning economy. And there’s no functioning economy without public health (you think the economy will be booming if hospitals aren’t admitting sick people of all kinds?)

The two are highly interdependent. There are no easy choices.

[SheepandCow]

If you don't want to be homeless then you'll want containment asap.

[MaxNormal]

SheepandCow firstly you've misunderstood. Would we as a country have agreed to these measures to help out a random African country? No of course not.

Secondly, lockdown has been an unmitigated disaster in South Africa. The poverty and suffering are horrendous and heart breaking and there is zero appetite for any further measures.
So where you get foresight ann common sense from from that mess I have no idea.

Its what put me off lockdowns, seeing that play out.

[IAintentDead]

Many of the countries that are quoted as having improved the situation are in the southern hemisphere. Australia et al are coming through spring into summer. It may be their lockdowns have worked or it may be that, as happens every year, coronavirus, flu and cold viruses are going into their seasonal low.

Only time will tell. BUT it could be that lockdown had little to do with the virus spread being lower here over the summer and, along with the usual seasonal stuff, ramping up through autumn. Maybe something worth a bit of thought

[Guylan]

@emptyplinth

How are you going to PAY for critical care BEDS in future if the ECONOMY is RUINED?

The economy will also be badly affected if community spread is not brought down either as confidence will be low which quoting an economist ‘may lead to a larger adverse effects on consumption and investment, leading to lower aggregate demand, and a potentially larger decline in output.’ There are no easy answers and it’s not a binary of either economy or health, they can’t be separated.

Govt will need to make sure people have enough financial support if more people are unable to work due to restrictions. Yes it will mean more debt but as the Bank of England are issuing the money to fund all of this and interest rates are low this might make it possible.

[MaxNormal]

As far as I'm concerned anyone who advocates for lockdowns in developing countries has blood on their hands.

[StatisticalSense]

@SheepandCow
Helping nature take it's course was in reference to those who wouldn't live more than another few days in any case and whose bodies are already beginning to shut down to the extent that they are unable to tolerate food or drink. I fail to see how it is considered dignified in such situations to deny access to drugs that would enable the suffering to end sooner.

[angrysquirrel73]

But what about the fuckers who fall off motorbikes and fill up intensive care? Should we just not scrape them off the road?
What about the fuckers who attempt suicide because they can't cope with the isolation anymore? They really are selfish so why don't we just leave them where they hang??

[Ibake]

@WhenSheWasBad as I say, Peru is really bad. You could have picked anyone of a number of countries and yes there are some countries in that mix eg South Korea etc that would not show us in a great light.

I do think that a countries relative success or failure with its Covid response is often multi-factorial - exposure to eg SARS when looking at SE Asia (Japan?) population density, remoteness, transport hub, obesity levels (another explanation for Japan?), age profile etc etc.

Having said that many of the countries that have appeared to do well have achieved that outcome via routes other than lockdown eg TTI or border lockdown. And border lockdown is proving problematic for countries such as Australia and NZ now as they can't lift until vaccine.

I think the author of the document I was reading chose those two countries just because their journeys were so different and yet their destination the same as ours. But yes, of course, you can always play with data!

[Chaotic45]

I agree with you OP.

I struggle to comprehend why unavailable medical care doesn't worry other people.

A psychologist on the radio today likened it to smokers not acknowledging the risk that it poses to their health. They make up a narrative that suits them instead, or just ignore the facts.

Sadly they tend to only stare the true situation in the face when it directly touches their own life.

[WhenSheWasBad]

But what about the fuckers who fall off motorbikes and fill up intensive care

Bikers don’t cause exponential growth in other people having biking accidents. Yes they might well do something stupid and cause an accident killing others. But that’s why we have laws against dangerous driving.

When it comes to Covid people’s actions affect others in their community. A lot of people in this country have a very individualistic approach to a virus.

[SheepandCow]

@MaxNormal
The poverty and suffering in South Africa was an issue before Covid. Uncontained, it would have been unimaginably worse.

Your argument makes no sense. We aren't taking (admittedly half hearted) containment measures to help anybody out. It's a fight for life - life of society and the economy as much as (if not more than) the individual.

We wouldn't have a functioning society or economy with completely uncontained Covid.

I'm starting to think this is a windup. There's no way people can be incapable of understanding very basic common sense?

I get some I'm Alright Jack types originally thought it wouldn't affect them - they saw it was disproportionately killing the poor, the elderly, the disabled, non white people. A more far right type with few morals would be fine with that. But it's now glaringly obvious how the knock-on effect on society and the economy will impact on everybody.

Also, Long Covid is a thing. A very real threat. It's not confined to The Others . It's affecting younger previously healthy people too. Potential long-term disability. Heart, lung, kidney damage, neurological issues, type 1 diabetes, blood clotting, male infertility.

There's a potentially devastating impact (of Long Covid) on the longer-term economy.

[TableFlowerss]

@SheepandCow

Imagine if someone said 'right, we're going to help out in Africa and this is what is expected of us - we'll close down the economy, no friends or family visits, curfews

That is what's happened in many African countries. They had the foresight and common sense we lacked. They knew just how vital containment was.

Btw it's not humans that shut down the economies. It's Covid - albeit prolonged in places like England, where effective containment measures weren't taken.

Separate from economy. Imagine being so selfish to want to prevent somebody else from ever seeing their friend or family member again (because they died) because they couldn't go without for a temporary period. Selfish beyond words.

Back to the economy. Failure to contain is what keeps the economy shut down. Keep on copying an ostrich (but looking less cute), but the facts speak for themselves wrt the economies of the countries who have successfully contained.

I’m not taking about the UK sending money to a 3rd world country and it not getting to where it was needed most and they how’s and why’s. That’s a complete separate topic.

Sending a few quid over is not anywhere near compatible to what people are being asked to do now.

Imagine being so selfish that you expect people to be ok with potentially losing their jobs, homes, and everything they’ve worked hard for, to not see their children at Christmas (who also starting to suffer with mental health problems)....

For something that the ^vast^ majority of people will be fine if they catch it.

[angrysquirrel73]

WhenSheWasBad I'm just pointing out there are other groups of people who don't do things that are inherently safe and the NHS still treats them. Think of smokers too.

My brother had major knee surgery following a rugby accident and he was the only one on his all male 12 person knee ward who hadn't had a motorbike accident.. I think the OP would consider them as all selfish fuckers for sure ;-)

[Jericoo]

What about everyone who chose (before Covid) to go out drinking on the weekend to the point of filling the ICUs with alcohol-related injuries? And then you have a heart attack but there are no free beds. Did everyone advocate for the total ban of alcohol? No.

[Jericoo]

Long Covid is no differently to any other post-viral syndrome. You could get that from the flu.

[angrysquirrel73]

Jericoo exactomondo :-)

[theviewfromhalfwaydown]

@Bookrat

Sorry to hear about your dd mines been going through similar it’s awful. No one would help us until she was admitted to a&e with anorexia and severe depression. Her heart was really weak. She had never been like it before lockdown and I dread another one as I think it will push her over the edge.

[hellotoday27]

@emptyplinth

How are you going to PAY for critical care BEDS in future if the ECONOMY is RUINED?

this

[Jericoo]

Oh sorry angrysquirrel I just repeated your point xD

[SheepandCow]

@Chaotic45

I agree with you OP.

I struggle to comprehend why unavailable medical care doesn't worry other people.

A psychologist on the radio today likened it to smokers not acknowledging the risk that it poses to their health. They make up a narrative that suits them instead, or just ignore the facts.

Sadly they tend to only stare the true situation in the face when it directly touches their own life.

I wouldn't compare it to smokers.
Most know exactly what they're doing. An informed choice that actually benefits society. Unlike failing to contain Covid.

Smokers contribute billions to the tax coffers (and only cost millions so the taxpayer gains from them).

They're also taking heed of all the 'The elderly are a burden' etc etc bile spouted - and have decided to save the country on pension and social care costs.

I'd say the Covid Deniers and Downplayers are more comparable to drink drivers. Some do it again and again and again. Only ever stopping if and when they kill somebody (or themselves).

[WhenSheWasBad]

angry
You keep mentioning stuff that only affects the patient. Your brother playing rugby only affects him and the other adults on the pitch.

Covid is a virus that spreads exponentially, to other people. It doesn’t just affect you it affects your community.

Interesting that you brought up smoking. As of course smoking does affect the health of others who unwittingly breath in the smoke. That’s why it’s now illegal to smoke in pubs, because your actions affect others.

[angrysquirrel73]

Jericoo no, no I'm relieved to find others think the same - there are too many irrational, COVID panickers (including SAGE) that are obsessed with a single virus without any consideration for any other cause of death and the economy..