So wtf are we doing in Manchester then?

[bingowingsmcgee]

Is anyone any the wiser?

@Flaxmeadow

You're conflating radical history with most radical history. They are not the same thing. There's no sensible argument that Manchester lacks radical roots

The problem is that the city likes to take credit from other areas. It sucks in surrounding towns and cities and claims them. This is why so many people in Lancashire were opposed to the 1973 changes, when huge swathes of Lancashire, and parts of Cheshire, were carved up to create the counties of Greater Manchester and Merseyside.

Manchester bigwigs wanted to drag its neighbours in. It's still happening now and the media consistently refer to "Manchester" (a fraction by population of GM the county), when what they really mean is Greater Manchseter. Even on this thread most comments are about the city, when it's the county AB is mayor of. How do people in places like Rochdale and Wigan feel about Burnham? No one even wanted a mayor of Greater Manchester in the first place, the "Met" mayors were forced in us. Same in Liverpool, Sheffield and Leeds often now referred to as "city regions", which is basically Merseyside, South Yorkshire and West Yorkshire . The surrounding cities and towns are losing their identities

It's just another layer of pointless bureaucracy. "Liverpool" has 2 mayors. Why?

None of this addresses the point you quoted. As I said, there is no sensible argument that Manchester lacks radical roots.

Also, your approach is rather north of GM-centric. There simply isn't the same degree of not-Manc identity in Sale and Trafford. If you want us to think more about the areas of GM that aren't the City of Manchester, that means all of them.

Stockport and Trafford, that was meant to say. Sale obviously is in Trafford!

No one even wanted a mayor of Greater Manchester in the first place, the "Met" mayors were forced in us.

Is this just in Rochdale and Wigan, or across the whole of GM, in your opinion?

I like Burnham and I supported the idea of a mayor of GM, as do a lot of my friends. We’re all in GM.

I support having a mayor of Greater Manchester. I think it gives us more power to fight against London centred decisions that don't work for us. Exactly what's happening now.

None of this addresses the point you quoted. As I said, there is no sensible argument that Manchester lacks radical roots.

It isn't as radical as people think it is though ,but tries to take all the credit for anything in the north. A lot of northerners love Manchester, it's a great city, but it isn't THE north, and people get sick of hearing about it sometimes. More than three quarters of people who live in Greater Manchester, do not live in actual Manchester or its suburbs. Yet on TV and in this thread that's all you hear

Also, your approach is rather north of GM-centric.

Not sure what you mean

There simply isn't the same degree of not-Manc identity in Sale and Trafford If you want us to think more about the areas of GM that aren't the City of Manchester, that means all of them

Well yes l, I think

I wanted one too. It would have been a reasonable point to say nobody in GM got a chance to vote on the existence of a metropolitan mayor (the CoM and Salford votes were not for the GM wide role). But to say that nobody wanted one, as opposed to us not having been asked, is overplaying the hand.

Is this just in Rochdale and Wigan, or across the whole of GM, in your opinion

I'd say most of them in GM and many in the actual city too. Most people didn't even want a mayor, same in Liverpool and Sheff and I think Leeds? They don't see the point of mayors. Some are good some are bad but meh mostly

I'm in Salford, which is a city in its own right but I still think we're better off together. We can still retain our history (which is similar and mixed together anyway) and identity, while being part of Greater Manchester.

I don't feel that we had a mayor forced on us and it isn't a view I hear amongst family, friends and colleagues.

I appreciate this may be different in the two areas you mentioned - Rochdale and Wigan.

It isn't as radical as people think it is though ,but tries to take all the credit for anything in the north. A lot of northerners love Manchester, it's a great city, but it isn't THE north, and people get sick of hearing about it sometimes. More than three quarters of people who live in Greater Manchester, do not live in actual Manchester or its suburbs. Yet on TV and in this thread that's all you hear

Again, this does not pertain to the existence of a radical tradition in the City of Manchester. You really aren't going to get anywhere trying to back your original claim up.

Not sure what you mean

You were talking about how people in eg Rochdale, Bolton etc don't really define themselves as being Mancunians, and the incorporation into GM hasn't changed that. While that doesn't tell us anything about whether the City of Manchester has a radical tradition or not, it's true in itself. However, you left out the non-CoM boroughs where people are more likely to view themselves as Mancunians. Those are in the south of GM.

TLDR, fine to say that conflating Mancunian with the whole of GM is alienating for eg Oldham. And I don't think anyone really understands why Wigan is part of GM at all. But the flipside to that is that the attitude you discuss is not at all the same in Stockport and Trafford, and there's variation in Bury depending on where you are. If we want to talk about attitudes in different boroughs, we don't just do that about the ones that suit your point.

@Dugee

I'm in Salford, which is a city in its own right but I still think we're better off together. We can still retain our history (which is similar and mixed together anyway) and identity, while being part of Greater Manchester.

I don't feel that we had a mayor forced on us and it isn't a view I hear amongst family, friends and colleagues.

I appreciate this may be different in the two areas you mentioned - Rochdale and Wigan.

Salford did vote to introduce a directly elected mayor so I get that.

CrappleUmble

Yes I know it has boroughs, this is another way of sucking everyone into its orbit IMO but anyway...I suppose it's because most people living in GM don't consider themselves as being Mancunians/from Manchester. Why would they? But they constantly get lumped in with it, and especially by the media.

It isn't as radical as people think it is though ,but tries to take all the credit for anything in the north

Meaningless drivel!!

A voice from Trafford here, I consider myself Mancunian and so do my family and friends. We don’t live in Hale though 🤣.

Has anyone mentioned the Pankhursts yet?

@GabriellaMontez

Not yet but good shout.

@Flaxmeadow

CrappleUmble

Yes I know it has boroughs, this is another way of sucking everyone into its orbit IMO but anyway...I suppose it's because most people living in GM don't consider themselves as being Mancunians/from Manchester. Why would they? But they constantly get lumped in with it, and especially by the media.

Some don't. I do wonder if it's most, though. I've known very few people from Stockport, Trafford or the more Manc-bordering parts of Bury and Tameside that don't, and Salford is a very mixed bag. If you live in the north of GM that probably impacts on your perspective.

Was reading this thread and wondering why there was no mention of the Pankhursts from Manchester then saw your post GabriellaMontez

Has anyone mentioned the Pankhursts yet?

Yes they actually were from Manchester, originally, but they were middle class, not a grass roots movement. The working class didn't support the Suffragettes, they supported the unions

@Flaxmeadow

Has anyone mentioned the Pankhursts yet?

Yes they actually were from Manchester, originally, but they were middle class, not a grass roots movement. The working class didn't support the Suffragettes, they supported the unions

Are only working class people allowed to count as radical then?

Would you consider Engels and Marx to have been radical?

Some don't. I do wonder if it's most, though. I've known very few people from Stockport, Trafford or the more Manc-bordering parts of Bury and Tameside that don't, and Salford is a very mixed bag. If you live in the north of GM that probably impacts on your perspective.

Trafford maybe, but the others would say I'm from Stockport or from Bury or Salford

Tameside is interesting, is Dukinfield in Tameside? You see my parents wouldn't even consider that Manchester.
Manchester is the actual city to a lot of people. Or as its AKA "town", that's what people say on the bus but then i don't think many mumsnetters use buses

Would you consider Engels and Marx to have been radical?

Yes of course but I'm thinking more about grass roots radicalism and they weren't from Manchester anyway. I think Engels lived in Eccles

Trafford maybe, but the others would say I'm from Stockport or from Bury or Salford

Nah. You've very clearly not spent a great deal of time in or near Stockport recently. Bury, like Tameside, varies really. People from just past Cheetham Hill Road or Audenshaw are going to have different perspectives to those living out in the hills.

I always say 'town' for Manchester city centre, I thought that was a class thing...

Marks and Engels met at the library it's well documented, and often told yawn yawn by my dd.
Then of course there's the founders day every year (not this) social and political history of Manchester is there for all to see.
It's amazing how many museums and libraries there are dotted around, some tiny ones.
I didn't know Manchester as not from round gtr manc, but studied the area for Leisure T&T for my degree.

In case anyone from outside the area is confused. Manchester, the actual city, is about one fifth of the whole population of GM I think. Notice the 2011 "city region" thing. Another level of bureaucracy and happening in other met counties in the north as well.

Greater Manchester is a metropolitan county and combined authority area in North West England, with a population of 2.8 million; the third largest in England after Greater London and the West Midlands.[2] It encompasses one of the largest metropolitan areas in the United Kingdom and comprises ten metropolitan boroughs:

Bolton,
Bury,
Oldham,
Rochdale,
Stockport,
Tameside,
Trafford,
Wigan,
and the cities of Manchester and Salford.

Greater Manchester was created on 1 April 1974, as a result of the Local Government Act 1972, and designated a functional city region on 1 April 2011.