I genuinely don’t get it?!

[Rapphue]

Hopeful for balanced and sincere posts here rather than the assumption that I’m ‘playing ignorance’ or some other accusation because my question undermines the government narrative.

FWIW I’m educated and well read, albeit I don’t have huge in depth knowledge politics, nor do I claim to!

But I don’t understand why we are having restrictions imposed for a virus that is no worse than other illnesses. Even if I accept that it is harmless to the NHS should it escalate fast and make many ill at the same time (so far no hospitals have been maxed out with corona - my SIL works as a hospital doctor in intense care and has said there hasn’t been even 50% corona patients in any ward at one time. She works in a busy London hospital)...even if I accept it could escalate and we don’t want that, then:

1. Why is there suddenly a lack of concern about public health in general? People are dying because they are having treatment postponed due to Coronavirus. Hospitals are not busy and certainly not full of corona patients. It seems crazy to me that anyone who may fall ill non corona related is now at the back of the queue. Tough shit if that ends in your death.

1. Pubs open until 10pm. I use this as one example of many arbitrary rules. Why does the virus suddenly operate after 10pm? Is it a vampire? Surely you can infect just as many people at 9:59pm as you can at 10pm. Is it just to reduce risk overall? If so then I think someone needs to read a gcse science textbook... the risk has already been taken if the pub is open full stop.

1. Cashless society...erm. Why?

I’m not trying to incite some sort of dramatic post. I hope there are honest reasons for operating as we have the last few months. I hope I am wrong to feel cynical. I hope - and suspect - I’m not knowledgeable enough to understand why this is happening how it is.

As far as I can tell this is very much about controlling people’s lives to their detriment. If it was about health why on Earth are we letting people get sick and delaying treatment because of a virus?

Is there something in the London protests yesterday? Am I missing something medical, political or scientific here?

I honestly don’t know why some people click on these posts if they don’t want to hold a discussion! Surely it’s better not to engage if you think I’m some Russian spy?!

No idea wtf is going on and why this virus, that actually seems no worse for the vast majority of people than any other coronavirus, is bringing the world to a halt and losing us our freedoms. This group of Belgian doctors seem to have the same queries...

docs4opendebate.be/en/open-letter/

@Rapphue

dame of course I would defer to the scientists. Rest assured that their impact is far more limited than the government would have you believe, though.

If it was purely driven by scientists then the policies would look very different.

Please tell me how policy would look @Rapphue

I think the response again is divided between what the government can countenance as politically expedient and the advice from SAGE.

Independent SAGE is emphasising the needs for social distancing more, and I think they are closer to a more scientific approach that would protect lives.

I would also agree that the messaging is really confusing and this is because the government is conflicted by these different priorities.

Go to work - because we need to keep the economy going.

but also stay at home if you can - because it is safer in a pandemic.

And of course, all of us are pulled by our different needs and responsibilities. So someone who is working as a nurse - and so exposed to risk -might also be looking after elderly relatives who should be shielding. We are all individually struggling with these different priorities (a bit, really, like the government, writ small).

malt many people seem to. I guess it is easier to do what you are told than to engage your own mind and think about things yourself.

I am sympathetic to your worries op.

Have you tried discussing your fears with someone in real life?

It might help the discussion better if we assume for the purposes of argument that the OP is of good intent (and not Russian ) and is looking for a conversation about the choices we are making as a society.

If the board admins think there is something dodgy going on, I'm sure they will act.

CrunchyNut

Ya Gavaru perooski ochen blocka.

I speak Russian very badly.

So maybe you would like to respond in Russian?

OP I would recommend herecomesthesun's posts.

Please think about them instead of continuing with what seem to be perpetual knee jerk responses, perhaps coming from your fears of some future cashless society.

Good luck op.

@DameFanny
Myself, I think this is how policy driven by the scientists would look Independent SAGE 10 point plan

@Rapphue

I honestly don’t know why some people click on these posts if they don’t want to hold a discussion! Surely it’s better not to engage if you think I’m some Russian spy?!

No, you don't get to stir up trouble with what are essentially conspiracy theories and get out that easily.

@Rapphue

malt many people seem to. I guess it is easier to do what you are told than to engage your own mind and think about things yourself.

Where is your thinking for yourself? This virus has a higher mortality rare than many, many others but you failed to think of that for yourself, how did that happen?

[quote Malteserdiet]No idea wtf is going on and why this virus, that actually seems no worse for the vast majority of people than any other coronavirus, is bringing the world to a halt and losing us our freedoms. This group of Belgian doctors seem to have the same queries...

docs4opendebate.be/en/open-letter/[/quote]
"no worse for the vast majority of people than any other coronavirus,"

What, like the common cold? It's very obviously worse than that.

As for that 'letter' (which has no list of the doctors who are supposed to have signed it and anyone can sign it using the online form and claim to be a doctor, I "signed" it as Dr Mickey Mouse with a Florida zip code). It's full of misinformation and demonstrably false claims, uses several YouTube videos as references (FFS!), includes a link to a 'natural health news website' with a false claim/conspiracy about Bill Gates, etc etc.
In other words it's complete garbage!

@Rapphue

titchy how is Coronavirus worse than stage four cancer?

How many Covid deaths have you witnessed OP?

And the legendary relatives who all work in Lindon ICUs and who all say it’s not a big deal. There must have been at least twenty of their relatives posting on MN since March 😉

I'd agree @herecomesthsun, but I'm curious as to @Rapphue's understanding of the scientific analysis

Because it kills the old and vulnerable. HTH

The pub thing is arbitrary. Why not 9:30? It's about Boris looking like he's doing something about pubs (earlier closing time) and avoiding having to pay furlough to employees who can't work. A few months ago people often said why are pubs open yet schools closed. Rightly or wrongly pubs have been a symbol of something opened up too early when people can get shit faced at home or in a restaurant if they do wished.

A totally cashless society isn't ok as some people need the cash option but cash in general harbours a lot of germs and it was safer for employers to protect employees but preferring card payments. Smartphones are already tracking movement as well as cctv etc so if you don't want to be tracked then ditch your car and smartphone for starters.

If we only had people getting ill and dying from covid then we wouldn’t have a problem, all of the calculations and projections are based including our normal illnesses and deaths. In fact we wouldn’t have much of a problem if people died quicker but covid, at its worst, requires intensive and long intervention (weeks rather than days). Only a small percentage of people need that but with population level figures those translate into huge numbers and there’s no inherent immunity so we’re all vulnerable as a basic level to start from.

We already know our limitations regarding other illnesses and can’t do much to mitigate them in the short term but covid we can focus on and try to reduce the repercussions across other health and general societal needs.

It’s worth keeping in mind that it’s not uniform across the country which services are running and which aren’t. I know three people with cancer (in three different areas of the country), one newly diagnosed over the summer whose had two surgeries and treatment, one hopefully coming to the end of her treatment who has had surgery and adjuvant therapies and one recurrence who was promptly treated with surgery. The same applies to mental health services (again a relative is being transitioned from inpatient services to supported living). The NHS has been patchy for decades, covid has simply shone a light on it.

The pub thing at first glance doesn’t make much sense but it’s to reduce opportunities to spread infection. Others have explained it very well but I’d like to add that this is a compromise on official advice; Witty and co would have happily closed pubs but economic and public demand meant that there were compromises reached.

A lot of things don’t make sense at first glance which is why it’s important to look into things further. There’s a lot wrong with our leadership, but especially right now it’s important to keep in mind this is a situation where things change quickly and our knowledge is still minimal and still developing. There isn’t the luxury of time or knowledge to consider actions and leadership has to be reactive to the changing health and economical data.

Shame it’s the tories in command but there is a lot of cross-party support alongside the oppositions because this is such a unique and far-reaching disaster.

@Rapphue

titchy how is Coronavirus worse than stage four cancer?

You can't catch stage four cancer from somebody coughing over you on the bus to work.

@Oblomov20

CrunchyNut

Ya Gavaru perooski ochen blocka.

I speak Russian very badly.

So maybe you would like to respond in Russian?

I don't speak Russian.

how is Coronavirus worse than stage four cancer?

The number of people dying of Covid (est 300,000 in UK) would be higher than cancer death (est 160,000) with no restrictions. And they're preventable because it's a communicable disease. Cancer isn't.

@herecomesthsun

It might help the discussion better if we assume for the purposes of argument that the OP is of good intent (and not Russian ) and is looking for a conversation about the choices we are making as a society.

If the board admins think there is something dodgy going on, I'm sure they will act.

Or the OP could have read the thousand other threads which discuss the same batshit, conspiracy theories in depth. Heck she might even have uncovered some of her close relatives on those threads, given how many of them refer to the relative who is an ICU doctor in London

my SIL works as a hospital doctor in intense care and has said there hasn’t been even 50% corona patients in any ward at one time. She works in a busy London hospital)...even if I accept it could escalate and we don’t want that,

As soon as I read that part of your first post I could no longer take you as being genuine.

Nothing anything says will change ops mind. Op is not interested in logical rational answers only looking for "conspiracy" where there is none.

I feel like what's missing for me is information on how it is actually spread.

Is it masks? Is it handwashing? Is it putting my parcels in the shed for 72 hours?

I realise all of these might help, but, to what extent?

My general feeling is that it's airborne, and that breathing the same air as other people for extended periods is the really bad one. But that touching doorknobs when out and about, unless I then use that hand to pick my nose and eat it probably isn't going to make a huge difference, as long as I keep up sensible hand-hygiene.

BUT I don't know that, I don't have hard information on transmission vectors, I don't know how to specifically protect myself and my family vs. general measures we could take for anything.