I genuinely don’t get it?!

[Rapphue]

Hopeful for balanced and sincere posts here rather than the assumption that I’m ‘playing ignorance’ or some other accusation because my question undermines the government narrative.

FWIW I’m educated and well read, albeit I don’t have huge in depth knowledge politics, nor do I claim to!

But I don’t understand why we are having restrictions imposed for a virus that is no worse than other illnesses. Even if I accept that it is harmless to the NHS should it escalate fast and make many ill at the same time (so far no hospitals have been maxed out with corona - my SIL works as a hospital doctor in intense care and has said there hasn’t been even 50% corona patients in any ward at one time. She works in a busy London hospital)...even if I accept it could escalate and we don’t want that, then:

1. Why is there suddenly a lack of concern about public health in general? People are dying because they are having treatment postponed due to Coronavirus. Hospitals are not busy and certainly not full of corona patients. It seems crazy to me that anyone who may fall ill non corona related is now at the back of the queue. Tough shit if that ends in your death.

1. Pubs open until 10pm. I use this as one example of many arbitrary rules. Why does the virus suddenly operate after 10pm? Is it a vampire? Surely you can infect just as many people at 9:59pm as you can at 10pm. Is it just to reduce risk overall? If so then I think someone needs to read a gcse science textbook... the risk has already been taken if the pub is open full stop.

1. Cashless society...erm. Why?

I’m not trying to incite some sort of dramatic post. I hope there are honest reasons for operating as we have the last few months. I hope I am wrong to feel cynical. I hope - and suspect - I’m not knowledgeable enough to understand why this is happening how it is.

As far as I can tell this is very much about controlling people’s lives to their detriment. If it was about health why on Earth are we letting people get sick and delaying treatment because of a virus?

Is there something in the London protests yesterday? Am I missing something medical, political or scientific here?

To be honest, I agree with the point about cash. A cashless society is not a prospect I want to contemplate.

I'm with you Rapphue. A friend said yesterday - oh so the virus can tell the bloody time now can it?!

Lots of things don't make sense to me either.

I agree, the initial premise of your argument doesn't stand OP

The eating out is to help the economy in a controlled way.

The pub thing is a mitagation.

If closing the pubs was zero and keeping them open as ' normal' was 100.
Closing at 10pm reduces the value below 100 as does the social distancing.

Whether this is enough to slow spread is another thing, whereas full closure affects jobs etc.

@Rapphue

titchy how is Coronavirus worse than stage four cancer?

They are very different types of things, the most obvious difference to me being that coronavirus is extremely contagious

Nothing constructive to add, but I have the exact same concerns and thoughts as you. It makes no sense at all.

@Rapphue

feelingconfused and toilen

I think it’s true that they planned for the worst and rightly so.

As for what I think is really going on...I’m not sure. The current situation just doesn’t make sense hence my questioning of it. I think at this point it is possible that society is being manipulated - not as part of a grand plan, but in an opportunist way.

Having a SIL working in a hospital and a close friend, it also makes me question it further. I’m not trying to incite drama, it’s an Internet forum for discussion on this very topic.

By all means tell me I’m wrong or an idiot or ridiculous to ask such questions or harbour such cynicism. But we can be polite about it surely?!

The virus is extremely contagious, novel so no one had immunity and it transmits from people who are asymptomatic, so before they know they have it. The issue is the sheer number who would catch and pass it on without restrictions, because a significant enough % of cases would be ill enough to need access to healthcare that it would crash the system and disrupt society. You must have seen the effects of a huge number of cases all at once in footage from other countries.

The pub curfew won't work imo so may well end with pubs shutting. Imo.

The idea is that people will drink less and be less likely to get too close and breathe all over oneanother.

If you go to pubs and know people who do you can see the weakness in this imagining of the thought processes of many of us.

But those at the top don't live that life and can be a little naive tbh.

Like the idea that football crowds wouldn't spread it because it's an outdoor event with seating. Yes it is bit there are a whole lot of other social things associated with football culture that someone whose popped into a box at Chelsea is not aware of.

They don't know what they don't know. They don't have the humility to enquire either.

But what about those dying or due to die following lack of treatment? Is that acceptable because overall saving those with Coronavirus will stop plenty more dying in comparison?

But it all has a knock on affect. If hospitals are overwhelmed that will in turn affect other treatments and early interventions. Also the risk of treatment for cancer with such high cases of CV in the community. It would be much better for lower spread for cancer patients.

heffa so the answer is that we are selecting who dies and who doesn’t - on the basis that if we don’t focus on reducing Corona spreading then in the end Corona will cause more deaths than deaths from other causes.

If that’s the case then I get it. But we surely need to stop pretending that the virus is deadly to all. It isn’t. People are not being treated for other more deadly illnesses, people are mentally unwell as a result of what has gone on. It’s disproportionate as far as I can tell but then maybe it is just a case of weighing everything up and whatever is done it is not a perfect answer by a long way.

I comply with all rules and guidance and have no issue hand washing and distancing and wearing masks. In fact I prefer it! No need to be close to each other as far as I’m concerned. But when we are now moving on to things like getting rid of cash. Erm, ok, let’s go along with that too shall we?!

yes that does make sense. If the threat is so dreadful then we shouldn’t be going out at all to establishments. Outside for walks, fine. For food, fine. But wining and dining, surely not at all
How do you think the government could enforce this considering there is so much resistance to closing at 10pm marches in London yesterday.
We just have to ride it out and depend on ourselves unfortunately.
My heart goes out to the medical staff.

riga yes except hospitals have not been busy over summer yet treatment has still been postponed!

Re the pubs, this is about reduction of risk, not elimination of risk.

To eliminate risk in pubs would be to close them down completely and devastate every business. They have chosen a curfew in order to reduce risk. They know that transmission will still happen in pubs, but fewer transmissions will happen than if they were open longer.

We have rules like this all the time. Why is a speed limit 30, not 28 or 32? If 30 is a safe speed, why are some roads 40 and some roads 20? They've decided to draw a line somewhere in order to try and give pubs a fighting chance of staying open.

@Kettlingur

But I don’t understand why we are having restrictions imposed for a virus that is no worse than other illnesses.

Your premise is wrong.

This.

Covid is worse, because if unrestrained it would result in an unmanageable number of critical cases and a very high number of deaths.

@Rapphue

heffa so the answer is that we are selecting who dies and who doesn’t - on the basis that if we don’t focus on reducing Corona spreading then in the end Corona will cause more deaths than deaths from other causes.

If that’s the case then I get it. But we surely need to stop pretending that the virus is deadly to all. It isn’t. People are not being treated for other more deadly illnesses, people are mentally unwell as a result of what has gone on. It’s disproportionate as far as I can tell but then maybe it is just a case of weighing everything up and whatever is done it is not a perfect answer by a long way.

I comply with all rules and guidance and have no issue hand washing and distancing and wearing masks. In fact I prefer it! No need to be close to each other as far as I’m concerned. But when we are now moving on to things like getting rid of cash. Erm, ok, let’s go along with that too shall we?!

The answer is that we are between a rock and a hard place and there is no clear best solution only a series of trade-offs to be discovered through a process of trial and error☹️

I genuinely don't get why you are confused.

There are very few viruses in circulation currently that can cause the level of deaths or hospitalisations that we could expect from covid. The NHS barely copes with a bad flu season never mind a virus which about 90% have little to no immunity.

As other posters have said it is a cost benefit analysis which shows that protecting the NHS from covid surges will best balance maintaining current treatments whilst saving more lives overall.

The government must balance deaths with the economic cost and service industries which make up a large proportion of our economy. They were slow to act in lockdown but now are trying to make small changes as the rate is rising much slower due to other precautions we have on place.

There are lots of people who think we should make no allowance at all and carry on as normal who will still complain that the tiniest change from the normality they crave makes no sense so they can ignore it.

The government have blatantly tried to make quite small changes in response to the latest infection rate rise which many scientists think are insufficient but we still have people moaning it's an over reaction.

Not once have I said I’m not complying with restrictions or taking the virus seriously as a threat to health.

But apparently it is terrible that I would even begin to question the likes of Boris and Co. I actually studied the exact same course as our BJ as the exact same college, and I can tell you first hand that such an education doesn't make you right about everything. It is right to ask questions and it is right to challenge policies that are put in place by a very small number of people.

As PPs have mentioned, I am assuming closing pubs and restaurants at 10pm is because the later is gets / the more drunk people get the less likely they are to adhere to social distancing rules. So closing at 10pm in conjunction with table service hopefully reduces spread. But it keeps pubs and restaurants open, and people in jobs.

The point many of us are wondering is why this virus. There's others that affect a minority worst than others eg flu

Flu has a lower death rate. I think flu kills about 0.1% in this country. Corona virus is thought to kill between 0.7 and 1.5% This is a massive difference in numbers. Also flu has an r rate that varies but is still smaller than covid, I think it's just somewhere above 1.2

The reproduction rate was 2. This means that each person with the disease will infect two. So the numbers of cases will double every few days. So if left unchecked then you are looking at a situation where today 6000 people have it next week 12000, the week after 24000 and so on. By the end of November 1.5 million people diagnosed (in total) that's 15,000 deaths.

so far no hospitals have been maxed out with corona - my SIL works as a hospital doctor in intense care and has said there hasn’t been even 50% corona patients in any ward at one time. She works in a busy London hospital)

This is not correct, my (now ex) partner was running a covid ICU for a while during the pandemic and it, plus the expanded ICU area was full. This is London.

Look at what happened to Central Middlesex and the Royal Free hospital.

Royal London Hospital prepared two additional floors of ICU beds AND Barts (the same trust) led the Nightingale (which thankfully was not used to capacity, or near it during the first wave).

so the answer is that we are selecting who dies and who doesn’t - on the basis that if we don’t focus on reducing Corona spreading then in the end Corona will cause more deaths than deaths from other causes.

If covid were left unchecked it would cause deaths from.covid and from everything else. If for example the number of people needing ambulances doubles due to covid, they won't be fast getting to anyone, whether covid, heart attack, fall, stroke, car crash.

@titchy

I don’t understand why we are having restrictions imposed for a virus that is no worse than other illnesses

You don't understand because your premise is wrong. It IS worse than other illnesses. HTH

except it isn't

it is a nasty virus for some people

the overwhelming vast majority of people who catch coronavirus will suffer none or only mild symptoms

even those in the most vulnerable demographics are more likely to survive than not

@Kettlingur

But I don’t understand why we are having restrictions imposed for a virus that is no worse than other illnesses.

Your premise is wrong.

^ this

Plenty of information out there why this virus is much more harmful than any we have seen before. Do you really think the whole world is in cahoots to overreact?

@Rapphue

I’m not slating Boris for saying close the pubs at 10pm. I’m not slating anyone or any decision - just questioning it I suppose?

I get that there needs to be some sort of balance if the economy is to keep going and be saved from utter devastation. But this is a virus. It will spread even if you are in a pub for a hour. Closing at 10 makes no odds. Either shut completely or let’s carry on as normal. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

Having delayed treatment because of a virus when hospitals are almost empty...I have a very close friend working in intensive care in a northern hospital and he has said it has been the easiest 6 months of work in his life!! I accept this may be coincidence and also may be his particular hospital but it seems very strange to me.

Then now there’s talk on giving up on cash. It sounds sinister.

I’m not one for conspiracy theories and know the virus is very real and a danger to human life. But what is going on alongside this just doesn’t make sense to me at all.

The NHS doesn’t cope very well with infectious diseases in the Winter. It never has, even under the big new labour cash injections of 15-20 years ago.

Every year the NHS spends half the year planning to tackle “just the flu” and half the year treating the complications caused by “just the flu”. This leads to cancelled operations and clinics. In January the nhs consistently almost collapses. Despite having vaccines and treatments for “just the flu”.

The annual cycle robs other health services of resources. Instead of spending on prevention and health management, the NHS pours money into acute treatment. As heroic as these services are, they are a sign of failure to prevent and manage ill health. Our obsession we maintaining a treatment service is making us sicker.

The COVID crisis has distilled the UKs half arsed approach to health care in such a way that exposes its inadequacies to the full extent. But it’s the only system we have in this crisis. That’s not just about government but it’s about the public as well.

There is no doubt that COVID and flu will test the NHS to the full whatever changes are made again. There’s no suggestion and no plans to halt other services to deal with it. But it’s not going to be easy. Anything that brings down and reverses the current tide of admissions is worth trying.

I don’t think your sisters account chimes with more credible reports about other London hospitals. Which are supported by data. She should at least know you can’t do planned operations if the icu beds are full. Which they were.