I genuinely don’t get it?!

[Rapphue]

Hopeful for balanced and sincere posts here rather than the assumption that I’m ‘playing ignorance’ or some other accusation because my question undermines the government narrative.

FWIW I’m educated and well read, albeit I don’t have huge in depth knowledge politics, nor do I claim to!

But I don’t understand why we are having restrictions imposed for a virus that is no worse than other illnesses. Even if I accept that it is harmless to the NHS should it escalate fast and make many ill at the same time (so far no hospitals have been maxed out with corona - my SIL works as a hospital doctor in intense care and has said there hasn’t been even 50% corona patients in any ward at one time. She works in a busy London hospital)...even if I accept it could escalate and we don’t want that, then:

1. Why is there suddenly a lack of concern about public health in general? People are dying because they are having treatment postponed due to Coronavirus. Hospitals are not busy and certainly not full of corona patients. It seems crazy to me that anyone who may fall ill non corona related is now at the back of the queue. Tough shit if that ends in your death.

1. Pubs open until 10pm. I use this as one example of many arbitrary rules. Why does the virus suddenly operate after 10pm? Is it a vampire? Surely you can infect just as many people at 9:59pm as you can at 10pm. Is it just to reduce risk overall? If so then I think someone needs to read a gcse science textbook... the risk has already been taken if the pub is open full stop.

1. Cashless society...erm. Why?

I’m not trying to incite some sort of dramatic post. I hope there are honest reasons for operating as we have the last few months. I hope I am wrong to feel cynical. I hope - and suspect - I’m not knowledgeable enough to understand why this is happening how it is.

As far as I can tell this is very much about controlling people’s lives to their detriment. If it was about health why on Earth are we letting people get sick and delaying treatment because of a virus?

Is there something in the London protests yesterday? Am I missing something medical, political or scientific here?

I think your questions are reasonable enough.

blustery but this isn’t a speed limit! It’s not an x and then y. It’s a virus! It doesn’t just cut itself off because you close the pub at 10. If you are out you are out. The virus can transmit.

The policy also has failed to take into account the fact that people simply start drinking earlier. Even bars and pubs are promoting offers in this regard.

I’m not saying the policies are the best we have in the circumstances but just sitting back and not asking questions seems crazy.

You have the mentality of a right wing individualist, op. that's your answer.

[quote movingonup20]@Feelingconfused2020

The point many of us are wondering is why this virus. There's others that affect a minority worst than others eg flu. My personal theory is back in January/February we thought it was worse (higher death rate) than it turned out to be and governments having wrecked financial ruin on us don't want to admit it. It is serious for some people, I'm not denying that but I've known people end up in intensive care from infections that their body overreacted to before eg Guillian Barr syndrome and we didn't lock the rest of the country. The truth is we all die, and sadly some will die this year whether there's covid or not from catching diseases that are mild in most people because of their comorbidities, the true death rate of covid is how many people are dying once the expected deaths are set aside, including the handful of younger healthy people who do unfortunately die from flu etc. I don't have the figures to hand but heard them on bbc radio 4 and it's under 1% of covid deaths. Very sad for their families but a public health emergency which will affect our children and grandchildren's future???? What do you think?[/quote]
It would have been worse, much worse, without lockdown, which prevented further spread.

OP, I think you know the answers to these questions, and you have started this "innocent" thread to start a bun fight.

But anyway.

The cashless society is so blindingly obvious, which is why I think you starting this thread is not genuine. If you pay by card, you can social distance more effectively. I don't think we should go totally cashless as many vulnerable people rely on cash. But paying by card when you can is a good idea.

It may seem contradictory to encourage people to go to restaurants and pubs but also to avoid others and social distance. This is because the economy relies on us getting out there and spending money. So the government is trying to tread a fine line between keeping the economy going, and therefore saving people's jobs as much as possible, whilst minimising contact.

The reason for that hospitals have been quiet is because of the lockdown keeping covid numbers down! If the government had not done that, the hospitals would have been overrun.

I've heard plenty of people say on here that their NHS treatment has been delayed or inadequate due to covid restrictions. I have no reason to disbelieve them, so clearly this needs a rethink and rebalance.

Personally, I've had no problems with my NHS treatment. I've easily got phone appointments with my gp, and I was seen once in person when it was necessary. I was then referred to my hospital by my gp, and saw a doctor in person.

I'm pregnant and I've had a mixture of phone and face to face appointments, which has been fine. My husband was allowed to come to my scan. I am worried about the restrictions on him being with me during labour though.

@MissMarplesHandbag

As PPs have mentioned, I am assuming closing pubs and restaurants at 10pm is because the later is gets / the more drunk people get the less likely they are to adhere to social distancing rules. So closing at 10pm in conjunction with table service hopefully reduces spread. But it keeps pubs and restaurants open, and people in jobs.

also v clever by the government because it means that pubs, bars and restaurants will lose income and staff will have reduced wages but the government doesn't have to bail them out

genius

@Rapphue

Not once have I said I’m not complying with restrictions or taking the virus seriously as a threat to health.

But apparently it is terrible that I would even begin to question the likes of Boris and Co. I actually studied the exact same course as our BJ as the exact same college, and I can tell you first hand that such an education doesn't make you right about everything. It is right to ask questions and it is right to challenge policies that are put in place by a very small number of people.

I think it is fine to have a discussion on a discussion board, very reasonable.

These posts tend to follow the same pattern....the OP just doesn’t understand....they’re educated so that’s not the reason for their lack of understanding....and they have a relative/friend who is a doctor. The only thing missing is this OP hasn’t said she has a chronic illness making them more at risk as this is often said to make us think they’re being completely reasonable. 🙄

@shoofle

You have the mentality of a right wing individualist, op. that's your answer.

The OP has the idiotic comprehension of one as well. I suspect there was a module at the college he / she went to with BJ. Self serving 101: wilful misunderstanding and spreading of lies with added bluster and disdain for humanity and morality.

10pm pub closing is partly symbolic:
mobile.twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1310164543591657473

antihop the cashless society is something they want to implement indefinitely. Does that not concern you in the slightest or are you happy for these things to be slipped into our laws behind Coronavirus panic?

FWIW I’m educated and well read, albeit I don’t have huge in depth knowledge politics, nor do I claim to!

You need to look at it from a medical point of view, rather than political.

There's nothing "genuine" about your post OP, about five seconds in you gave away your agenda. Back to the AD threads with you my dear!

It's a new virus. Most viruses there is at least some immunity in the population through prior exposure or better still vaccination. So if left unchecked it will spread like wildfire.

Yes it has an infection fatality rate of (likely) around 0.5% but another way of looking at this is 1:200 people will die. Take a school or other community and think about numbers this way.

It spreads pre symptomatically so people spread it without feeling ill, this is why it is harder to control.

To have a fatality rate of around 0.5% there needs to be adequate healthcare to help a relatively high number of people who need oxygen etc. Take your local City assume an infection rate of say 40% of that number then take 5% of those requiring hospital. You will see how quickly hospitals would go under.

There aren't yet any treatments given outside of hospital hence the trajectory of the Pandemic is the same even though treatment is better.

If you really want to understand google what happened in Brazil etc and imagine that in the UK, bodies piling up in the streets, mass graves. Not only would hospitals not be able to deal with Covid patients but also car crashes etc etc.

As for saying the numbers are low. Do the maths on would you prefer a £1,000,000 now today or a penny which doubles every day for a month?

Don’t know what “intense” care your SIL works on but the London ICU I work on was massively over capacity and “maxed out” as you put it. It was hell on earth and not something that I, nor any of my colleagues ever wish to see again. It was horrific.

We do not know the long term effects of this virus.

That said, we do need to be ensuring people who need treatment get it. In my hospital we are back doing the major cancer surgeries that require ICU / HDU post op. Patients have to self isolate for 2 weeks before and several have not done this meaning they’re putting themselves, other patients and staff at risk.

I don’t know the answers but I can tell you that had we not locked down when we did then London’s critical care units would have been even worse than they were.

But I don’t understand why we are having restrictions imposed for a virus that is no worse than other illnesses.

Not true. It might be what you WANT to be true. But it isn't Do you really think the whole world would react as it has if this was true? Perhaps you haven't lost or nearly lost loved ones? I have, as have many other people. I do agree though that the NHS has somewhat lost the plot about dealing with other treatments. But they have to keep these people away from any COVID risk too, which isn't as easy as it sounds.

[quote CoffeeandCroissant]10pm pub closing is partly symbolic:
mobile.twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1310164543591657473[/quote]
sadly like lots of the restrictions imposed on everyone, it isn't 'the science' that is driving it

FWIW I’m educated and well read

And, start reading the correct stuff not anti-mask conspiracy theories.

So rapphue we agree that the government has imposed a measure you see as unlikely to have the desired effect with the earlier pub closures.

Governments enact unsuccessful policies regularly.

It proves nothing except that if we are right they will maybe have to bring in something more severe.

Because with the exponential growth in virus leading to large absence rates and a crippling level of hospitalisation the country wouldn't manage any type of normality anyway.

See Wuhan and Lombardy.

badtattoo I’m not high risk for Coronavirus but I have family who are. It’s got nothing to do with political leanings. I’m happy to go along with closed pubs and bars and limited travel. I think the policies are increasingly questionable, though. I didn’t attend the protests yesterday as I think they were extremely selfish and reckless. But I applaud those who don’t just go along with decisions made by a minority of people without interrogating those decisions and seeking reasoning for them.

It IS worse than other virusses, it just doesn't cause that many deaths because the restrictions are working. A lot of people compare it to the flu which has a lower death rate, a vaccine and multiple treatment options. Covid doesn't come close to that at present. Your reasoning is the same as saying chemo isn't necessary after someone survived cancer because of their treatment.

Also, letting covid loose would mean that even less patients with otger diseases can be seen.

Also, the lives of the vulnerable (who aren't all old) are just as valueble as yours or thise of cancer patients et cetera.

What everyone is trying to do is a balancing act, trying to disrupt pives as little as possible (by trying to save part of the economy and education) while trying to prevent less deaths and giving vulnerable people a good chance to survive. This is why the rules keep changing, they see that cases rise too much so try to impose some measures to bring them back down a bit. Some don't work but hindsight is 20/20.

@shoofle

You have the mentality of a right wing individualist, op. that's your answer.

Can't help but agree with this post.

I don't know how anybody can not understand why the restrictions are in place. You even refer to it in point 1 of your OP....right from the start of this whole fiasco the aim has been to protect the NHS and stop it being overrun with Coronavirus cases.

You can put restrictions on place to stop the spread and hope that you have limited people infected, less people needing hospitalisation and therefore the NHS can more or less cope with Covid cases and non-Covid cases. Or you can let Covid run it's course through the UK, infect huge numbers of people, which leads to massive numbers of people needing hospitalisation and the NHS drowns under a wave of Covid cases, and all the non-Covid cases are completely forgotten about because the resources and staff aren't available.

And yet you are on Mumsnet looking for answers?

A bit disingenuous op.

rorose I guess that is the summary - trying to muddle through as best they can. I fear there is huge devastation down the line from
this that will appear in places and people’s lives in a manner a long cry from the fear of a virus such as covid-19.