I genuinely don’t get it?!

[Rapphue]

Hopeful for balanced and sincere posts here rather than the assumption that I’m ‘playing ignorance’ or some other accusation because my question undermines the government narrative.

FWIW I’m educated and well read, albeit I don’t have huge in depth knowledge politics, nor do I claim to!

But I don’t understand why we are having restrictions imposed for a virus that is no worse than other illnesses. Even if I accept that it is harmless to the NHS should it escalate fast and make many ill at the same time (so far no hospitals have been maxed out with corona - my SIL works as a hospital doctor in intense care and has said there hasn’t been even 50% corona patients in any ward at one time. She works in a busy London hospital)...even if I accept it could escalate and we don’t want that, then:

1. Why is there suddenly a lack of concern about public health in general? People are dying because they are having treatment postponed due to Coronavirus. Hospitals are not busy and certainly not full of corona patients. It seems crazy to me that anyone who may fall ill non corona related is now at the back of the queue. Tough shit if that ends in your death.

1. Pubs open until 10pm. I use this as one example of many arbitrary rules. Why does the virus suddenly operate after 10pm? Is it a vampire? Surely you can infect just as many people at 9:59pm as you can at 10pm. Is it just to reduce risk overall? If so then I think someone needs to read a gcse science textbook... the risk has already been taken if the pub is open full stop.

1. Cashless society...erm. Why?

I’m not trying to incite some sort of dramatic post. I hope there are honest reasons for operating as we have the last few months. I hope I am wrong to feel cynical. I hope - and suspect - I’m not knowledgeable enough to understand why this is happening how it is.

As far as I can tell this is very much about controlling people’s lives to their detriment. If it was about health why on Earth are we letting people get sick and delaying treatment because of a virus?

Is there something in the London protests yesterday? Am I missing something medical, political or scientific here?

Mostly because it's a new virus, surely? When it first started spreading, hospitals were only able to offer treatment that relieved some of the symptoms (i.e. oxygen) but there were lots of things they didn't know about the virus and how it affects the body. Now they know a lot more and there are some promising treatments (but they've had to try lots of different ones that didn't work at all, too).

As it's new, no one had/has any immunity (they estimate about 8% of the population now may have some immunity from having been infected already). The flu is not like this as many have immunity already and there's a good vaccination programme every year.

Why is it that some people default to name calling wgen someboy dares to have thoughts and opinions that differ to theirs? Is it so hard to give a reasoned response or even not respond at all?

OP, I'm with you on many counts. I think some people do not like to think critically. It's comforting to have information neatly packaged and presented. Having watched The Social Dilemma on Netflix, I can see the fat cats above rubbing their paws with glee at the impending cashless society.

Like when the conquistadors landed in the Americas and brought their viruses with them.

I keep on withdrawing cash.
Wherever I've asked cash has been accepted.

@Rapphue

herecomesthesun yes that does make sense. If the threat is so dreadful then we shouldn’t be going out at all to establishments. Outside for walks, fine. For food, fine. But wining and dining, surely not at all.

I hear what you are saying that this will cause masses of deaths if we don’t lockdown in measures necessary to curtail the spread.

But what about those dying or due to die following lack of treatment? Is that acceptable because overall saving those with Coronavirus will stop plenty more dying in comparison?

Right. So personally I am not wining and dining right now, outside my home, because I am vulnerable.

The government is torn between the Chancellor (wanting to help business) and the need to emphasise social distancing in a pandemic.

I can see why Rishi Sunak did EOTHO, to save businesses and jobs, and case numbers were low when this was announced, but there is the big downside that this may well have caused further spread of the virus.

You may have heard of what happened with Philadelphia and St Louis in1918.

In a pandemic, when you have exponential growth, it is really important to shut down parts of society to prevent spread. You want to be St. Louis, shutting down schools and you don't want to be Philadelphia, still going out on parade.

As for how the health service can help people with other illnesses, if there were hundreds of thousands of people seriously ill or dying with covid, then people with heart disease or cancer still wouldn't be getting much treatment, because there would be other patients in those beds, and you really wouldn't want your chemotherapy patients coming and getting covid. It would be a different, and worse problem for the health service.

covid is real

but are we reacting to it in a proportionate and effective way? I don't believe we are. And next year when we have 10-15% unemployment and all of the crap that is associated with it I think many more people will feel that we have not just over reacted, but incorrectly acted.

The government offers no leadership, no plan and no hope. They are risking everything on a vaccine and if it is not forthcoming we will be subject to a never ending series of 'lockdowns' while all around us society crumbles.

@Rapphue

blustery but this isn’t a speed limit! It’s not an x and then y. It’s a virus! It doesn’t just cut itself off because you close the pub at 10. If you are out you are out. The virus can transmit.

The policy also has failed to take into account the fact that people simply start drinking earlier. Even bars and pubs are promoting offers in this regard.

I’m not saying the policies are the best we have in the circumstances but just sitting back and not asking questions seems crazy.

Yea and if that happens, then I think we will find further restrictions come into play. The idea is that we will all take personal responsibility to reduce spreading the virus with current restrictions and they won't get stronger. If people are so minded to continue as they did before but just start earlier, they will not be trusted to show this responsibility collectively and the government will bring in stricter laws to reduce the risks. Really if we want less restrictions we have to start showing personal accountability for our part in this, not just behave like teenagers trying to figure out how to get round the rules. If everyone genuinely cares about those not getting the treatment they require in hospital; they would be taking every step possible to reduce transmissions and keep the hospital admissions low. I am no Tory, and I disagree with a lot of their policies, but they are right when they say that we each need to play our part and take responsibility for our behaviours.

I’m not high risk for Coronavirus but I have family who are.

And there we have it, a full house. You should have mentioned it in your OP.

As the saying goes, you can’t argue with stupid....so I won’t. 🤪

The government offers no leadership, yes I broadly agree with this.

I'm the furthest person from being a fan of the current government but I really don't understand all these people questioning restrictions as if there's some ulterior motive. No government wants to wilfully wreck it's economy.

Re. the curfew I believe a similar curfew has been used in Belgium where they have had some success in restricting a second wave so the UK government is probably looking t things that have worked in other countries, although I agree that no measures will be particularly successful without effective testing and tracing.

FTM yes, it’s worrying people accept these things - I certainly don’t want to live in a cashless society. Easy way to get that law in place now though, isn’t it.

This thread is a reminder of how easily people just sit back and open their mouths and swallow whatever information they are given without a second thought. Scary!

Once again: I’ve complied with all restrictions. I’m aware covid is dangerous and real. I’m just having a discussion. On a discussion board.

@SallySeven

And yet you are on Mumsnet looking for answers?

A bit disingenuous op.

Where 'looking for answers' is a euphemism for 'trying to instigate and control a narrative around the threat of a cashless society'🤔

But you don't seen to be very well informed yourself op. Sorry.

badtatto I’m not looking to argue. Just looking for a discussion with open minds

The Belgian pub curfew was 11pm and I gather it was a more of a relaxed 'drink up' then go rather than a strict close the doors and turf everyone out

@Rapphue

Not once have I said I’m not complying with restrictions or taking the virus seriously as a threat to health.

But apparently it is terrible that I would even begin to question the likes of Boris and Co. I actually studied the exact same course as our BJ as the exact same college, and I can tell you first hand that such an education doesn't make you right about everything. It is right to ask questions and it is right to challenge policies that are put in place by a very small number of people.

Question Boris and co all you like @Rapphue - they keep revealing themselves to be incompetent, devious and crooked.

But it's the scientists - with their very specific university educations and subsequent trainings and experience - that are driving the covid response. Do you honestly believe you know better than they do?

Would you prefer a response in English or Russian OP?

There is no point in thinking that no restrictions would save the economy. The whole world economy is fucked, we are all connected economically so there will be a recession/depression even if one country wouldn't have any restrictions. We need to save some jobs, but that economic downturn will happen no matter what.

Also, after a few years it will get better again. Every recession has an end. Even the 20s one lasted just a decade.

sally and heffa the cashless society prospect is worrying. Do you not find that worrying?

I’m not at all as clued up as I could be, but have never said I was! There’s no need to become angry or defensive... as for looking for answers on mumsnet - I wouldn’t say I expect the answer to be on this forum but I expected a general discussion, ideally without accusations of being inflammatory simply because my view may differ from yours.

@CrunchyNutNC

Would you prefer a response in English or Russian OP?

I have to say that I have been wondering if the daily restriction deniers are part of some political movemeng to destabilize the west. It's very often....

Well Heffalooomia "they"'ll prise the cash from my cold, dead hands, lol!

Who is angry or defensive op?

You are a rum one.

dame of course I would defer to the scientists. Rest assured that their impact is far more limited than the government would have you believe, though.

If it was purely driven by scientists then the policies would look very different.

rorosemary if you had an ulterior motive and wanted to create mischief and dissent this type of thread is a cheap and effective format...

Rapphue are you very well informed or not very well informed.

Your narrative seems a bit wobbly