The doctors are all being paid to say the diagnosis is covid - it doesn't exist

[treebarking]

This is what I heard when I turned on the news just a minute ago...by demonstrators in London today...I'm actually really shocked. Do people really think this?? There were A LOT of people at the demonstration...

positive test not positive death.

And a report from another conspiracy theorist here www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/healthy-man-29-sends-coronavirus-22744961

Whilst it is a noble effort it is a bit of a fool's errand to try to counter-argue the 'sheeple conspiracists'. Because .... a video on You Tube from a quack doctor or a fake messiah.

@vera99

Whilst it is a noble effort it is a bit of a fool's errand to try to counter-argue the 'sheeple conspiracists'. Because .... a video on You Tube from a quack doctor or a fake messiah.

Yeah, you're right, it is a waste of time. They aren't going to change their minds. Best to just stay away from them online and in real life.

The virus (itself) isn't going to kill 99% of the poulation only the elderly and vunerbable are at risk, who would need to take precautions anyway. With lock down restrictions resulting in loss of livelyhoods, suicides, less medical care etc that will lead to more deaths as a knock on effect surely. If we are looking at lives lost this could be worse in the long run. Where's the end game, wait for a rushed through, ineffective vaccine till we go back to normal

If you knew, as I do, the friends of a young healthy person who died you would not be saying it is only the elderly at risk. It isnt. The young are much lower risk but deaths happen. It's also unknown how long people will suffer lung, heart, even brain damage or how many do so.

The jobs of the young depend as much on older people spending money as it does on the young. The old are less likely to do their own gardening, decorating, make their own meals, even cut their own nails. If older people dont spend the economy suffers. So every time you dont wear your mask or party in large groups you damage the economy.

@alreadytaken

" Yes I understand that. But the government are counting everyone with it mentioned aren't they. Presumably they aren't going to publicise everyone death certificate."

No, the government is not counting everyone with it mentioned. They are only counting people where it was the main cause of death and even then deaths in the community wont be counted in the daily figures unless they'd had a positive death in the last 28 days.

The test are not 100% reliable. There is a distinctive pattern on x-rays and doctors say the cough is distinctive to the professional ear. They also record a lot of observations on each patient of things like oxygen levels. If you really think your doctor cant recognise covid by now then you need to avoid all medical treatment ever. Why, if it looks like covid and sounds like covid, are you so keen it should be recorded as something else.

I'm....not keen for it to be recorded as something else. I think you're getting yourself confused.

@alreadytaken

" Yes I understand that. But the government are counting everyone with it mentioned aren't they. Presumably they aren't going to publicise everyone death certificate."

No, the government is not counting everyone with it mentioned. They are only counting people where it was the main cause of death and even then deaths in the community wont be counted in the daily figures unless they'd had a positive death in the last 28 days.

The test are not 100% reliable. There is a distinctive pattern on x-rays and doctors say the cough is distinctive to the professional ear. They also record a lot of observations on each patient of things like oxygen levels. If you really think your doctor cant recognise covid by now then you need to avoid all medical treatment ever. Why, if it looks like covid and sounds like covid, are you so keen it should be recorded as something else.

You're wrong. The actual cause of death may not be covid in all cases. From the government website.

[quote Ophelia2020]Oh well, if they've got videos it must be true! Is it only covid which has set off The Reset? Why wasn't it done at the time of previous pandemics, or were those just practice runs

Some videos can be flipped off. Some can't. If you know who the WEF are and what they do you wouldn't flip it off. It's not a crazed teenager in his bedroom.

As for practices, there was a virtual one last year. There's been plenty.

www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/event201/scenario.html[/quote]
Oh for fuck's sake @Ophelia2020 a video isn't an implementation. I can make a video saying the world will be run by cats by 2050 but it won't make it true. If you liked the idea you could then go and vote for the Feline Domination Party, but that wouldn't necessarily make it happen either.

Yes the WEF may be more influential than the Cats Protection League but that still doesn't mean that anything they're suggesting will somehow magically come to pass. How do you think policy change happens? Maybe read up on that instead of scaring yourself with might be's.

The jobs of the young depend as much on older people spending money as it does on the young.

I would disagree slightly with this, but also jobs are being lost because they have NO choice due to restrictions, the vulnerable would be shielding anyway so the older people not spending would be neither here nor there!

Sorry to hear your friends know someone who has died without known health conditions but this is proven to be extremely rare and I can bet my bottom dollar they'll be a suicide or someone denied critical care to match

And it's not 'a plan on an official site'. You make it sounds as if it's official policy on a government website. It's a proposal on a think tank site. There's nothing official about that in terms of UK or any other country's policy.

The virus (itself) isn't going to kill 99% of the population only the elderly and vunerbable are at risk

Apart from the rather repugnant implication that the lives of the elderly and vulnerable don't matter or matter less - 99% would mean 1 in every 100 people dying.

In the US nearly 1 in 3 deaths in the African American population is under 65. In the UK ICNARC reports show that the average age of people in ICU (the most seriously ill, some of whom will go on to die) is around 60.
mobile.twitter.com/ActuaryByDay/status/1309959318402457604

Only 1 in 8 people admitted to hospital have severe comorbidities.

Of those who are seriously ill in hospital the biggest proportion is those aged 60 to 69 followed very closely by those aged 50 to 59. Those 70 and over and particularly those 80 and over are a much smaller percentage of the overall total.
mobile.twitter.com/ActuaryByDay/status/1309959339738886144

There is also a growing body of evidence showing long term health effects on young people, even those who had a 'mild' case of Covid-19.

Apart from the rather repugnant implication that the lives of the elderly and vulnerable don't matter or matter less - 99% would mean 1 in every 100 people dying.

Of course they matter, my dad is 60 and has a serious health Co diction so believe me I do think they matter! And the percentage was not exact, more like 99.9% I think..

And what about the long term impacts we KNOW will cost lives like lack of check ups now and loss of businesses etc.

Like I said yesterday, nothing wrong with being a 🐑 sheep.

And, sheep are NOT stupid (despite some pp claiming so).
www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170418-sheep-are-not-stupid-and-they-are-not-helpless-either#:~:text=Reality%3A%20Sheep%20are%20actually%20surprisingly,destructive%20creatures%20on%20the%20planet.&text=Intelligent.

@Orange89

Apart from the rather repugnant implication that the lives of the elderly and vulnerable don't matter or matter less - 99% would mean 1 in every 100 people dying.

Of course they matter, my dad is 60 and has a serious health Co diction so believe me I do think they matter! And the percentage was not exact, more like 99.9% I think..

And what about the long term impacts we KNOW will cost lives like lack of check ups now and loss of businesses etc.

Experts believe at least 10% of Covid sufferers will go on to develop Long Covid. Many are young and previously healthy, and often had an initial mild case with no need for hospitalisation.

Research indicates 80% of Covid patients recover with no serious illness. That means a whopping 20% become seriously ill, likely requiring hospital treatment. With no access to hospital treatment (i.e. uncontained Covid running through the population) the death rate would go up and up and up.

The Vulnerable make up a significant proportion of the working age population. Millions of them. Bit of a fucker for the economy if loads become unable to work (because they're dead or in hospital or at home but too unwell to work).

@Orange89

The virus (itself) isn't going to kill 99% of the poulation only the elderly and vunerbable are at risk, who would need to take precautions anyway. With lock down restrictions resulting in loss of livelyhoods, suicides, less medical care etc that will lead to more deaths as a knock on effect surely. If we are looking at lives lost this could be worse in the long run. Where's the end game, wait for a rushed through, ineffective vaccine till we go back to normal

Can you post a link for your figures please? Confused as I'm not sure how we can prevent Covid from killing more than 99% of patients if we have no measures to prevent the spread?

How do patients (Covid, cancer, mental health, or anything else) get treatment when beds are full and hospital staff ill?

Around 40% of the population is one of The Vulnerable, and membership of the Others Club will swell when Long Covid sufferers join

Meanwhile countries that contained the spread really are operating mostly normally. Hospitals, schools, offices, pubs, entertainment venues, etc.

@vera99

Whilst it is a noble effort it is a bit of a fool's errand to try to counter-argue the 'sheeple conspiracists'. Because .... a video on You Tube from a quack doctor or a fake messiah.

I always live in hope. Even if some of them are too much of a lost cause, it's worth countering their irrational mutterings. Easily manipulated people might be reading.

@SallySeven

Certainly not a case that lower IQ means you shouldn't have a voice.

My point really is it's really arrogant of posters to assume everyone had the luxury to assimilate a lot of (at times contradictory) input from news and internet and come up with a reasoned response.

Those in charge are coping with a fast shifting situation. They seem a bit lost too tbh. It was not covered in THEIR education and training!

Those in charge are coping with a fast shifting situation....It was not covered in THEIR education and training It's very very simple. An infectious disease spreads amongst people. Stop it spreading, problem goes away. Australia and New Zealand realised this. No education or training is needed to have very basic common sense and a tiny little bit of foresight. Those in charge are given very generous benefits from the taxpayer purse in order to use these basic skills.

@SheepandCow hope that sound good.

@mrshoho thought you might be interested to read the below link as you are correct that the assumption was that the excess deaths were undiagnosed Covid but this analysis in the Lancet has thrown doubt on that by the Coronial team at the John Radcliffe hospital.

"Of the 67 autopsies done at our hospital during the first 2 months of lockdown, only two autopsies identified COVID-19 that was undiagnosed before death. More frequently, reduced access to health-care systems associated with lockdown was identified as a probable contributory factor (six cases) or possible contributory factor (eight cases) to death. These causes included potentially preventable out-of-hospital deaths such as acute myocardial infarction and diabetic ketoacidosis, in which patients contacted the health services by telephone and were advised to self-isolate at home rather than attending hospital. Direct reference to financial or work pressures caused by COVID-19 was identified in three of ten cases of suicide."

www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(20)30180-8/fulltext

@BlueCookieMonster

I agree with a previous poster that the restrictions are going to cost more in economic and mental well-being, than they ever would otherwise.

If you were concerned you'd want it over with asap. Failing to contain the spread drags it all out.

How much do you think it will cost if we fail to contain it? It will be economically devastating. Our mental well-being would already be so much better had we used our island advantage like Australia and New Zealand did at the start. Trying to ignore it all, downplay and deny hasn't worked. Here we are, six months down the line, in a right old mess. Too many people, young inexperienced chancellor Rishi Sunak included, fail to think beyond the middle of next week.

You can't fix stupid

@SheepandCow I agree.

They have been shown up in many cases as empty coats.

@Orange89

The virus (itself) isn't going to kill 99% of the poulation only the elderly and vunerbable are at risk, who would need to take precautions anyway. With lock down restrictions resulting in loss of livelyhoods, suicides, less medical care etc that will lead to more deaths as a knock on effect surely. If we are looking at lives lost this could be worse in the long run. Where's the end game, wait for a rushed through, ineffective vaccine till we go back to normal

"75% of deaths were associated with moderate risk criteria for which shielding was not advised. >25% of entire population would have needed to be effectively shielded to prevent >80% of deaths." According to recent studies.

@Stinkyguineapig

If the China border was closed back in December (earlier?) So no one was allowed in or out till it was eradicated there would any of us be having any discussion on each countries handling of the virus?

I'm pretty sure there have been confirmation of corona virus in some European countries before that (from testing water samples I think?)

Small outbreaks are easily manageable. Isolate and treat the cases. NZ successfully did this when they had a tiny outbreak in Auckland after a quarantine cockup.

Yep. You're right @Stinkyguineapig
It would all be over with by now. Life everywhere would be normal. Leaving us free to focus on tackling the mental health crisis(the need for more funding and better treatments). So many posters have mentioned their concern about suicides. There's clearly a public desire for improved care. Presumably that means we'll finally tackle the housing and homelessness issues too, and benefits cuts/sanctions, which are so very heavily linked to suicides.
It's something to be hopeful for in the future. Now that we know there's such public support for action in these areas.