To educate or to orphan a child

[herecomesthsun]

I was released from shielding yesterday. I am well aware that if I get this infection I may well become very unwell (I have a lung process in some ways like cystic fibrosis. I am very well in myself most of the time, but can get very ill with pneumonia and excess mucus production, and have needed to be on a nebuliser in the past).

I have DC1 in primary school (small village school) and DC2 in KS3 of a very good selective secondary school (much bigger and in a local city, so riskier).

DC2 is very worried about me getting ill with the return to school.

3 of my grandparents died when their own children were very young. I know the effect this can have and I think this is worse than being out of education for a few months.

We have been able to educate our children fairly well at home,but I do not want DC2 especially to lose that school place (which was very well earned by competitive exam).

The alternative would be quite risky and it would be hard enough to have family illness without a young person feeling that they had been the main risk factor.

I think that the government plans are going to leave some families to be bereaved in this way, inevitably.The priorities are keeping hospitality going- because it is business - and then keeping the schools going - so people can get back to work - but bereavements are going to create longstanding problems for societies in themselves.

We have increasing numbers of older parents these days and there are children going home to parents over 50 and/or with health conditions which, even if they are not significant in the usual run of things,could cause a lot of problems with covid.

For us, shielding and return to school are not separate issues, as our one household needs to do both.

I would certainly not want to compromise my children´s education. I see their lives as more important than mine and I think that given the choice I would probably make a choice in favour of them.

However, as regards my own parents, the loss of one or both parents in itself led to educational choices being greatly curtailed. My mother went to work as a a teenager rather than going on to college to be a teacher, my father did not fulfil his academic promise.

I think the best chance for my own childrenś education prospects is to try and hang around as long as I possibly can.

So would it be selfish to keep them off from school for the next couple of terms, when there are effectively 2 parents available who can educate them (semi-retired)?

Would it be reasonable for starters to keep them off for the first month to see how things go and cite family vulnerability?

What do you think?

OP I think in this case you would be justified in keeping your kids home. There’s every chance there will be a vaccine in six months and so you just need to ride things out till then. For me, my D.C. is much older and so - having had six months with me - I think missing out on hugs from me but being able to sit in a park and have a beer with his mates is a reasonable trade off. But for you, riding this out and teaching your kids at home might be the best trade off.

Lol ok so I am quite able to read medical papers.

In crowded schools,with hundreds or even thousands of pupils, the chances of children and then their families getting infected are SIGNIFICANT (ie quite likely, maybe it could reach 30-40% if it went through a school over the winter, who knows).

And the chances of death,for family members who are extremely vulnerable, are also signficant (maybe,once infected, 1 in 20? or 1 in 10, with the right combination of factors). At that point, a bit like playing Russian roulette, with 10 or 20 blanks.

Maybe I´ḿ just not feeling lucky. I do know what it is like struggling to breathe through lungs clogged with mucus and I am quite keen not to catch a virus that kills via a very similar process. I don´t want to find out through my own personal experience whether my underlying lung damage and impaired mucus clearance would give the virus a head start. Not least I do not want this to happen because of the effect it would have on my kids.

Could your older child stay with your husband and go to school while you stay elsewhere and home educate the younger child if that space would be easier to either get again or a similar place. A yr8 child and your husband should be able to manage together.

@Fairybio

Far from it. But concerned at the sacrifices being asked of children during their formative years in order to placate anxious parents.

or the sacrifices being expected from those who are oblivious to the real risks of covid having free rein. You are right i am anxious. I am anxious of being judged by people who have no idea what it like to have a child at high risk. I am anxious of being pressured to send my children into what is not a safe environment right now. I am anxious of what the consequences would be if my child contracts covid. But us 'anxious' parents are not being placated here.

The blasé parents, the employers, the business who are pushing for schools to be fully open with not safety measures they are the ones being placated. The Governments insisting on fining parents like me does that placate you? Is that what you want, to force away our choice ?

I would rather sacrifice 12 months of our family lives than lose a child. A sacrifice that the parents, siblings, grandparents, cousins will feel for far longer.
But the last few months have given us different opportunities and experiences. A once in a lifetime chance that everyone has benefited from in our home.

@Trackandtrace With respect, this conversation was about healthy children and concerned parents. Having an ill/vulnerable child is completely different. I have great sympathy for your issues, and have no wish to "force away your choice."

It's a trade off of least worst outcome.

Risk of not seeing friends/disruption to education
vs
life without a parent and the guilt of knowing it was you bringing the virus home to said parent.

I'm strongly in favour of schools reopening and agree that attendance should be compulsory for children from non vulnerable families but I also believe that people like you should be given the choice. I really feel for you having such a difficult decision to make. What advice have you had from your medical consultant? Are there any charities or support groups who could offer advice?

As regards the title,this is EXACTLY the issue we are facing in black and white.There you are.

I don't think that it will ultimately be her decision though, I think the lea will get involved sad.
@Beebityboo have you spoke to your LEA? I have and they were very supportive and reassured me they will not be fining parents who are vulnerable or their dc are.

Ah, is it an issue that there are 2 LEAs involved, as we are over the border (very clever DC got in out of catchment)

The thing is, I don´t know for certain what would happen in terms of outcome if I caught this. However, if you took 1000 families like us, and sent all the children back, I am sure there would be deaths of vulnerable members. How many? we don´t know.

What I suspect will happen is that schools will go back in some form, there will quite a lot of infection especially in secondary schools (from the evidence we have) and then there will be concern about the knock on effect on vulnerable children and family members.Just as there has been about people in care homes. But only after some poor buggers have become very ill or died first.

I think it is common sense to try and avoid this scenario but it is not currently politically expedient to notice that it is likely to happen.

I think there will be a substantial number of people in this position. My kids are in secondary school and there are loads of parents aged 50+ and more of those older ones are male than female.

I think it's been more straightforward getting some primary kids back to school as their parents are generally younger. But the secondary parents are going to be more vulnerable. And there is no chance of social distancing, certainly in my kids' school. They could keep the teacher protected to an extent by not allowing kids too close to the teacher, but I don't fancy their chances of keeping teens apart.

The teacher issue also applies to the primary/secondary split. With some exceptions, most of our primary teachers are younger than our secondary teachers.

OP, I have no great suggestions for your situation. However, my question is, how would you support your DC's mental health if they stay off school? Most people who home ed (in normal times) go to a range of groups, so their children get plenty of opportunities to socialise. Children need other children to develop normally, especially teenagers, though I do realise that losing you would be rather more detrimental to their mental health than being cut off from peers.

So,could it not be argued that, especially if a child appears to be well supported at home and able to do the work, that there might be a case for them being allowed to de-register for the term and/or next term,if they or a member of the household is extremely vulnerable?

This might make the teachers' jobs easier, as slightly smaller classes would be easier to socially distance (and teach).

This would give valuable time to take stock.

In the short term, this would run counter to the government´ś line of argument but in the medium to long term, another catastrophe of avoidable deaths might be averted.

Then again, they don´t seem particularly put out by the carnage this far. World beating, and all that.

If I was in your position I’d dereg them. If your capable of home schooling go for it

DC2 is still in touch with classmates via phone and whatsapp and games etc. The 2 DC have teamed up and are playing together a lot. They are quite good companions for each other thankfully. Also very close to us as parents eg long walks and bike rides. I agree socialisation is a concern though.

However, overall risk is 1 in 200 of death approx in the general population. It would be substantially higher for me

It is not remotely anywhere near that! For 25 - 34 year old people the risk is actually 1 in 66,653. And yes, the risk is slightly higher for those with certain underlying health conditions. There are many things that vary similar risks. Do you avoid all of them? Do you even know what they are?

You can mitigate the risks, but I can't imagine how any parent could deprive their children of a school education (which is not just about the knowledge you gain), or allow their child to see it as something that is gained at the risk of killing their parent. Whatever the underlying health condition, risk is something you must need to manage anyway, regardless of Covid. Or is Covid the only possible thing that could result in your death?

Unlike the first respondent, U don’t think your question is over-egging things at all . This is the reality faced by many thousands of families.
In your circumstances, I would home school. I wish you all the best.

It's not just about death. It's also the long term health ramifications. Fingers in ears and lalalala helps no-one.

It's a personal risk assessment. You do you, I'll do me

Your title is incredibly extreme. Have you even researched the numbers ? The death rates for people with Pre existing lung conditions are still incredibly low. It’s your job to ensure your child goes to School feeling reassured and absolutely no ideas they are ‘putting you at risk of certain death’.

What a seriously unhelpful reply! Who are you to tell her that she's got the figures wrong? You have no idea what her risk is.

I think the op has to weigh up the risks for herself and act accordingly. In the wider scheme of things, while missing a couple of terms of school is pretty dreadful, it is better than the worst-case alternative.

Moondust, the mortality percentages are still being calculated and recalculated and vary in different studies.

Sadly, I have not been in my 20s for ooh a few years now.

Yes, I have a very good idea what the risk factors are.

No, we don´t know the risks as precisely as you suggest and unfortunately the risk for me would be a lot higher than you seem to think.

Some data here ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

Interestingly this study,from Nature no less, gives mortality figures ranging from 16% to 0.1% and plots them inversely against government effectiveness (How scary is that,with Boris &co in charge?) www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-68862-x

Yes,I have an underlying health condition and no it is not COPD as someone suggested.

Cheers.

OP I would home educate in your situation, and deregister if necessary (but I wouldn't do that until I had to, in case guidance re fines and so on changes to make it unnecessary). Losing the (grammar, I assume?) place would be the tough bit, but it might not be forever.

Maybe 'previously deregistered due to medically certified family health risks' should be a temporary admissions category after the worst of the pandemic - even if no one could be guaranteed getting their place back, at least people who'd been forced to do that would be higher up the waiting list than they might be otherwise.

There may not be the same home ed groups available as usual but with quite a few families in this position you can bet some new ones will start up - online, and even outdoors with seriously good social distancing (because people in that position will take the social distancing seriously). There will still be opportunities for social contact, educationally it sounds fine for your kids, and it's not forever.

@herecomesthsun

I have read the thread but forgive me, if I’ve missed it, the most important factor in this is what do your doctors think is safe? Have they given an opinion on your overall health and the likely risk to you - current lung function, usual oxygen sats and any other risk factors (such as; age) etc.

It’s too difficult to simply say “people with X condition have Y % risk of death” because of all the variables, mainly; age, ethnicity and comorbities.

For what it’s worth on CF, they did a study of CF patients who contracted Covid and outcomes were much better than expected. This is reassuring.

Thatś a sensible idea. I know that my GPs would be flummoxed to advise and I have written to my respiratory consultant but not had a direct answer (they just set up shielding after a long delay).

I assumed the resp team was rather busy ,so left them alone to manage the actively unwell Covid patients on their wards.

I don think any appointments would be forthcoming at this time (hospital appointments locally are being repeatedly cancelled, rescheduled and cancelled again). I could write I suppose and ask for their assessment of the situation.

I think they would just say that there is a lot of uncertainty about a lot of these issues, though enough cause for concern in my case to suggest shielding.

Iḿ very well when I don´t have an active chest infection and very unwell when I have a relapse.

Have you got asthma @herecomesthsun?