No prosecution for parents petition - any thoughts?

[sunseekin]

“We deem that absence related to the coronavirus pandemic would meet the grounds prescribed. As long as the school knows where a pupil is and why they aren’t attending, there should be no risk of the pupil losing their school place.”

This was part of the Government’s response to March’s petition (90,000 + signatures) re fines and prosecutions for not attending school due to the coronavirus pandemic.

Given that the pandemic is still very much in full swing does it still apply? Or has this (part of the Coronavirus Act 2020) been caveated or repealed since then??

I know that Gareth announced that school was compulsory and that fines would be a part of that. But it’s always compulsory, but there are still legal reasons why you might not attend.

Fines would obviously be reasonable for someone who was bothered about coronavirus on a Monday but not on a Tuesday, or on holiday because of coronavirus one week but back in school the next. Which is why Gareth may have said fines were a part of things, but the response surely suggests that reasons relating to the pandemic could still be valid legal reasons.

I am at the point where I am pretty confident that I won’t be sending by two school aged children back in September. For family reasons and because I think teachers and students who need to be their for a rest array of reasons (including mental health obviously) deserve to be as safe as possible.

A positive virus mutation or the disappearance of corona would be amazing, but it seems more likely that we have an autumn/winter to get through before things can get better.

I can cope with this, science and medicine (especially recent announcements re treatments) give me hope that better times are around the corner. I’m able to home teach, see it as a way of helping keep schools safer and am now trying to get the logistics clear in my head.

I don’t think it’s fair that we lose their places, I think we only really need to think about living with it when we have seen how it behaves in all the seasons and have a better understanding of longer term impacts.

Here is the link to the full government response.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300399

Big apologies if this duplicates or has been asked elsewhere, I’m trying to keep up - promise!

No, given that parents who do not want to send can deregister from school and officially homeschool they can do that, they should not simply keep their place in a school without attending. So yes, parents have the choice already to not be fined, they can continue to do that, otherwise kids should be in school and the pandemic should not be available as an excuse for those who simply do not engage with school.

I respect your opinions and understand your reasons for them. However, it would be quite hard/almost impossible to have this as a policy.

As soon as there is choice there is inconsistency. Who decides what is good enough home learning, do the school assess what provision you put in place for your child? Realistically what school has the capacity to check that.

If your child isn't up to par when you want them to return can the school then refuse? Even if they could thay would be unfair on the child.

What about all those who say theyll support learning at home and then dont. We have a duty to these children to ensure they get an education.

Your best bet would be to approach your own headteacher directly. They can chose not to send fines to local authority...although they're not going to want the attendance records dropping and again...if other parents find out will be a nightmare.

I agree op and think that should be gov stance to allow he with no fines or losing places. Providing perhaps the child is meeting expectations.
Once it all goes to crap the testing will stop again so we cant even make any sort of decision about how many cases there are.
The gov have messed up they dont really get to say yeah we know 120k people will die and your parents are xyz age and health but back to school anyway.
They are showing themselves to be much worse than countries that are always criticised.

They either make it safer which is definitely possible or accept some people wont send them and would rather take the gov to court. People are not choosing to HE the gov are choosing to not make it safe in schools.
They themswlves say bubbles of 30 but schools arent neccessarily doing that.
There arent enough toilets to have some by bubble.
The gov are chosing to wait for 2 cases to close bubbles.

Things are never going to be ideal in a pandemic; I think we have to just try and find everybody’s best compromise. Especially if it doesn’t impact / only has positive impacts on others.

Our preferred compromises will be as different as our lives and personalities. Perhaps all we all have in common is that nobody is living their best life.

Added into this it would make schools safer for all. Whilst making them more likely to stay open for longer. I have a teaching background and think schools could provide amazing support to a 50% intake, but not much more than crowd control to a full school.

Our head recently sent out a discipline policy to all parents, which has never happened before. Certainly not so randomly. Our school doesn’t have a discipline problem, but I think they know there will be more issues when they have to expect children to sit facing the front all day 😢

I imagine there will be a fair few students who get sent home across the country. Smaller class sizes could mean more support and freedom within the classroom. Anyway, I’m going off on a tangent!

Regardless of whether people think it’s fair or not to keep places, I think that this Government response suggests that it could well be a valid reason.

I’m just curious how other people (especially those with a more legal background / understanding than me) interpret this Government response.

I take it to mean that grounds relating to the coronavirus pandemic could well still be legal. And I think that sadly this is even more likely to be the case by September if new cases continue to rise.

I will take it up with the head although probably nearer the time, I don’t think there’s much point at the moment as I think the landscape will be very different in six weeks time.

I just can’t stop my brain from trying to plan/think ahead so am wondering if anyone knows whether the government has retracted this / in what instances it would still stand? Thanks!

Our head recently sent out a discipline policy to all parents, which has never happened before

Maintained schools are required to send it out to all students and parents once a year, so it's rather strange they've ignored their obligations until now, are you sure you didn't just miss it?

I am in agreement OP. Wales is doing as you suggest.

I am frustrated with parents who say 'suck it up or deregister'. They should be supporting other parents, as I support their right/decision to return. For some reason, some parents simply get angry with anyone who sees or does things differently.

I'm not sure what I will do in September.

@Keepdistance

I agree op and think that should be gov stance to allow he with no fines or losing places. Providing perhaps the child is meeting expectations. Once it all goes to crap the testing will stop again so we cant even make any sort of decision about how many cases there are. The gov have messed up they dont really get to say yeah we know 120k people will die and your parents are xyz age and health but back to school anyway. They are showing themselves to be much worse than countries that are always criticised.

They either make it safer which is definitely possible or accept some people wont send them and would rather take the gov to court. People are not choosing to HE the gov are choosing to not make it safe in schools.
They themswlves say bubbles of 30 but schools arent neccessarily doing that.
There arent enough toilets to have some by bubble.
The gov are chosing to wait for 2 cases to close bubbles.

@keepdistance Sorry, I didn’t see your reply as I was typing mine.

I’m wondering if they’ve already given us the legal right? Ie there is no need to worry about fines/prosecutions for not sending them back?

They’ve said in their response that a pandemic can be a legal reason for a parent to keep their child off school.

Of course fines are still a part of the system but maybe it’s not as blanket as they / the press are hoping people will believe.

I’m wondering if they’ve come out with more announcements since or if this whole blanket fine thing has just been assumed by the press?

And if they have made further announcements, surely that contradicts with the original response to the petition meaning it should be open for debate in Parliament when it gets to 100 000 signatures?

It seems like another confusing set of contradictions from the government!

@sirfredfredgeorge

Our head recently sent out a discipline policy to all parents, which has never happened before

Maintained schools are required to send it out to all students and parents once a year, so it's rather strange they've ignored their obligations until now, are you sure you didn't just miss it?

I could easily have done, but it’s position in the middle of all the knee expectations re face the front etc seemed significant.

If it’s meant to be out every year I’m sure they send it out every year, but most likely at the start of the year rather than when we break up for the holiday. Although I could do with a discipline policy for the holiday 🤪

New not knee! 🤦🏻‍♀️ I’m off to bed 😴

@labyrinthloafer “For some reason, some parents simply get angry with anyone who sees or does things differently.”

I know exactly what you mean. I think it’s because the situation is so utterly rubbish and people are desperate to believe that they’re doing the right thing.

If people are doing the same as you it somehow makes you feel more right. I include myself here - I admit to feeling relief when people are doing the same as me too.

There isn’t one right answer though just a whole load of pants compromises.

Blanket policies are rarely the best policies, you need to take care of individuals. The “Every Child Matters” policy hinges on this - we need to acknowledge and work with differences. It’s just a bit of a 🤯 that the best (temporary) outcome for some children is to be at home.

Really must 😴 now!

I agree OP.

If you expect schools to be open and staff risking their own health then frankly, you send in your children or you homeschool. It is not OK to expect teachers to take responsibility for full time schooling in person and online and/or for teachers to be available for parents to consult or anything else.

OP - I respect your reasons to keep your children off but it really is an all,or nothing decision, I’m afraid.

Some people on here seem to be unwilling to hear or respect others ways of thinking

Even when doing so would benefit their own child by making schools less busy

Weird

In my opinion, parents should be given a choice to homeschool where schools agree the level of homeschooling is suitable and/or health concerns are considered.

Most countries are still only back with small or part golf classes.

Why obstruct something that makes your class smaller for the sake of smugly opposing other well meaning parents?

Time not golf!!!!

Perhaps there should be a homeschooling allowance that lets parents do it for a while without losing their place or being fined

That would help a lot of parents

(Home school without teacher help I mean)

@Enoughnowstop

If you expect schools to be open and staff risking their own health then frankly, you send in your children or you homeschool. It is not OK to expect teachers to take responsibility for full time schooling in person and online and/or for teachers to be available for parents to consult or anything else.

OP - I respect your reasons to keep your children off but it really is an all,or nothing decision, I’m afraid.

The teacher's life will be made harder by having kids in where parents are uncertain.

This term is going to be pretty chaotic.

There'll be kids and staff going off every time they cough.
There'll be discipline/behaviour expectations to re-establish
There'll be staff having serious heath fears
There'll be pupils with serious health fears
There'll be beteavement
There'll be social issues
There'll be increasedpoverty

The people being pushy and trying to get everything back to normal from day one are just going to make it harder for all the kids.

Don't underestimate the stress young people will feel on returning. Mine was v happy to return - but it was still not like going back after a holiday.

@Nobodyputsdaisyinthecorner

Perhaps there should be a homeschooling allowance that lets parents do it for a while without losing their place or being fined

That would help a lot of parents

No money required, just don't apply fines straight away, as Wales is doing. That's all you need to do.

I'm not sure about this really.

I think the logistics of allowing parents to choose whether or not to send in their children would cause havoc. For every parent like you who has made a decision that it is not safe for schools to open and will educate unsupported at home, there will be parents that don't send them for a while host of reasons and claim it is for the same reasons as you.

I worked in an area (teacher) with very poor school attendance and therefore very poor attainment. Parents didn't used to bother sending kids in a lot of the time and the education welfare officer often had to do a roundup in the town and found many of our pupils in the local park or outside the aldi. Once the fines came in it did improve.

There is also the issue of oversubscribed primary schools... Some parents will have missed out on their school places only for reception classes to be under capacity due to parents choosing not to send.

But aside from all the above, I don't think it's the same as in March at all. I didn't send my daughter for one week before the schools shut. I was scared. We didn't know enough about the virus, it's prevalence, who it affected and how. There was a lot of noise in the media. There was a lot of talk about other countries misreporting the numbers of deaths and about choosing who to treat in hospitals. As it happens, the death rates were lower than predicted, children were indeed basically unaffected and we now have a much better understanding of the virus. The prevalence of he virus is in decline. I don't think the context is the same at all.

I teach in a deprived area, we are in the highest quintile for deprivation on the OFSTED scale.

We will not be able to get the children back in unless it is compulsory. The children I worry about will be the last back through the door and even with the threat of fines it will be a struggle.

The issue is this is classic English policymaking. Two wrongs don't make a right but we always go for an easy approach instead of addressing the underlying issues.

Oversubscribed primary schools are a red herring - an underlying unfair allocation in the system doesn't justify fines for all.

I am more concerned now than in spring - because the government have given up and winter is coming.

How have the government given up?

They have had to open businesses with measures in place.

There was handwringing earlier this week because Scotland had seen a 'record' spike in cases. 21. 21 people out of a country of 5 and a half million people caught the virus. 16000 people had the test and of those, 21 of them had it. That is not much higher than the expected false positive rate.

What further measures would you like to see in place?

The kids need to be in school.

I agree OP. For those who can home ed, and want to, should be encouraged. Of course it's an impossible ask of teachers to help us. If parents are able to do this, and are prepared to demonstrate what's been covered then what's the problem? There are studies that indicate that tweens and teens caused cv spikes in countries that opened schools up. If you have the time and resources then you are helping schools with social distancing.

Our local primary has social bubbles of 90+ and has three years at a time entering school together - with a parent. That's up to 550 children at a time. There's no obvious social distancing efforts in place from their guidance. We were stunned. It is as though they believe things to be back to normal.

@upthewolves let's not start it all up, there are loads of threads. I'm a person unimpressed by the government response and therefore that is where I am.

This thread is about whether parents like me should be automatically fined, and I'm going to stick to that topic here.

I agree schools should be open. I have concerns at fully open with no social distancing. My view is the Welsh approach to fines is the correct one, and the English approach is wrong.

Children need to be in school, send your children back to school!