No prosecution for parents petition - any thoughts?

[sunseekin]

“We deem that absence related to the coronavirus pandemic would meet the grounds prescribed. As long as the school knows where a pupil is and why they aren’t attending, there should be no risk of the pupil losing their school place.”

This was part of the Government’s response to March’s petition (90,000 + signatures) re fines and prosecutions for not attending school due to the coronavirus pandemic.

Given that the pandemic is still very much in full swing does it still apply? Or has this (part of the Coronavirus Act 2020) been caveated or repealed since then??

I know that Gareth announced that school was compulsory and that fines would be a part of that. But it’s always compulsory, but there are still legal reasons why you might not attend.

Fines would obviously be reasonable for someone who was bothered about coronavirus on a Monday but not on a Tuesday, or on holiday because of coronavirus one week but back in school the next. Which is why Gareth may have said fines were a part of things, but the response surely suggests that reasons relating to the pandemic could still be valid legal reasons.

I am at the point where I am pretty confident that I won’t be sending by two school aged children back in September. For family reasons and because I think teachers and students who need to be their for a rest array of reasons (including mental health obviously) deserve to be as safe as possible.

A positive virus mutation or the disappearance of corona would be amazing, but it seems more likely that we have an autumn/winter to get through before things can get better.

I can cope with this, science and medicine (especially recent announcements re treatments) give me hope that better times are around the corner. I’m able to home teach, see it as a way of helping keep schools safer and am now trying to get the logistics clear in my head.

I don’t think it’s fair that we lose their places, I think we only really need to think about living with it when we have seen how it behaves in all the seasons and have a better understanding of longer term impacts.

Here is the link to the full government response.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300399

Big apologies if this duplicates or has been asked elsewhere, I’m trying to keep up - promise!

@scotlandg

I also agree should be parental choice. We are clinically vulnerable and before this our son had never missed a day. He is year 1. Now we don't know what to do. He has been learning for about 2-3 hours daily at home so I'm hoping that's ok to keep him up to speed. But it's such a hard decision to make. I just don't know what to do for the best. Our other child is meant to start reception and dc 3 preschool but I know that's easier to defer. I think in honesty they have loved having this time to spend together but I don't want them to miss out socially. However I'm really worried if they brought it home we could get very ill. It feels pathetic to be so afraid but I can't help it. The ppl we know who have had it have ended up in comas and still can't work so that's not helped me to decide. I guess Sept is a long way off. I'm just praying the situation is clearer by then.

It’s not pathetic at all, what you’re feeling and describing is normal. You sound like you have a similar family to mine, I’ll be deferring preschool too. In England school places don’t need to be taken until the term after they’re five but you’d need to chat to the school nearer the time I guess. Like you, I think things will be clearer in September. Take care x

@Hercwasonaroll

Gareth maybe a misremembering of Gavin (Williamson Ed sec).

Bubbles won't isolate until at least 2 confirmed cases. HTs currently planning to inform parents after one case and parents can vote with their feet.

They aren't really bubbles at secondary. Sieves would be more accurate a description.

Indeed - sieves! When I was teaching I can still remember those tummy bugs with my secondary school tutor group when one could be off one day and about 4/5 the day after. 30 in close contact = quick spread especially with what they’re proposing.

@cantkeepawayforever

I think the only sensible way to achieve what you want to happen, without unintended consequences fro highly vulnerable children, is to require deregistration.

If there is no waiting list for the class, and nobody else arrives who needs the place, you can have it back on request at any time.

If on the other hand someone else does need the place - which as you say, you would be OK with - then it would be filled by that person.

I don't think it is reasonable to keep a school place that you don't have an intention of using, if someone else wants it.

I’ll keep the places if I can but if there was someone in catchment with no available school place, I would be happy to be contacted and withdraw. But that would be my choice. Not saying that’s how I think it should be necessarily, but personally I would be happy.

But I really don’t think that will be necessary so it isn’t an issue that I’ll give anymore headspace to. Especially as I think schools will generally be supportive and not want to lose their students.

We do have shielding issues but I don’t think we are at the stage where we limit discretion only to those shielding.

I think the response is clear - a genuine concern about the virus, in situations where students can be homeschooled safely is enough of a reason to keep them off. Everyone has their own concept of risk - Boris’ is dubious - I am not leaving the health and safety decisions to this government, who are basing their decisions on whether there will be enough hospital beds.

I believe this is reasonable whilst accepting others will think I’m bonkers! When you’ve worked as a teacher for a while (and had others paths in life I’m sure) your resolve is strong and your skin tough.

I don’t think deregistering is the best answer for the schools. They’ll lose funding which would be tricky for them, especially if a lot of students left.

@Mapless

I'm with you *@Beebityboo*. It's a horrible decision to be faced with. I have three children and asthma. For one of my two most recent chest infections, I had an ambulance sent out to me. I doubt I would make it if I caught covid. To prepare I have increased my fitness a lot since March. I do some sort of cardio most days. I've only lost half a stone, and need to lose a lot more. However the bottom line is it's not enough. I do feel forced into an impossible decision. Schools can't really keep my dcs safe if cases increase and spike this autumn.

Of course dcs of parents, who aren't concerned whether their child receives an education, should have help to get one. But I dont fall into this group. I want my children to have an education that doesn't put me or anyone else at risk. I appreciate that there are other diseases. But there aren't currently many other ones killing 60000 people in 4 months. Of course it isn't fair that some families have no choice but to send their dcs because they can't home ed, but want to. This should alter choice though.

I don't think I am at all self centred. I am looking at what my family and I need
Who doesnt! I also contribute meaningfully to society, as do others. If I can manage to do this and home Ed then I am very fortunate - and very aware of it. I want agency in my life and choice about what happens to my health. This country gave me an education and taught me to think for myself. Well I am.

I also believe that government serves the people. Just because folks on MN can't figure out how something is possible, doesnt mean it isn't. Change is possible. Uncomfortable perhaps, but possible. If this isnt the right fight for you, or the right time, that's your decision for your family. Not mine. As pp posters have said, I'm focussing on what my family need. I'm not seeking to take resources away from others nor remove access to a school place. As another pp has said - buy age appropriate workbooks. Use bitesize and other sites. Follow learning expectations for your child's year. Find a way if you.must to home Ed. But don't criticise others for the choice.

Love this 😍 We will never regret thinking for ourselves. Students can catch up - crikey I’ve seen it! Students work better when they feel safer. I am sad it will never be a real choice, some children have to go or for mental health reasons really need to go - at least we would be making the schools safer for them too. It’s not perfect, but choice is a very reasonable concept in the circumstances.

I think there should be a grace period until the start of CY 2021. However, teachers should not be expected to create educational provision after September---parents will be on their own.

To be honest if you aren't overly worried about colds, norovirus, winter flu then you don't need to be overly worried about coronavirus

I would urge everyone to ask a medical professional before listening to totally misleading stuff like this.

One of the biggest mistakes made at the start of the pandemic was that confident but medically ignorant people downplayed the risks. Get clear medical information from someone you can trust. C19 is nothing like the three illnesses mentioned, it is a novel virus we are learning about.

"We do have shielding issues but I don’t think we are at the stage where we limit discretion only to those shielding"

Shielding will have paused be the time schools are back, and the deshielding letter is explicit that previously shielding should go to school - with frequent handwashing and keeping SD whenever possible.

I was surprised at how rapid the change from complete protection to seemingly none. But then again, shielding wasn't really about protecting the individual, it was about stopping over 2 million likely bedblockers getting in the way of everyone else

As with anything you catch, it's a roll of the dice how it affects you.

I've had relatives die from coronavirus (old, infirm, would have died from cancer soon), friends spent days in bed with it, down to people who barely had symptoms. Winter flu or norovirus could lead to complications and we don't all run scared of them.

We're learning all the time about coronavirus. The more knowledge we have, the better treatment if you get it.

@nether

"We do have shielding issues but I don’t think we are at the stage where we limit discretion only to those shielding"

Shielding will have paused be the time schools are back, and the deshielding letter is explicit that previously shielding should go to school - with frequent handwashing and keeping SD whenever possible.

I was surprised at how rapid the change from complete protection to seemingly none. But then again, shielding wasn't really about protecting the individual, it was about stopping over 2 million likely bedblockers getting in the way of everyone else

Shielding officially may pause, but people can continue to shield just like they can stay away from the pub.

The fact we know so little and the impacts vary so widely is precisely why parents shouldn't be fined if they don't return immediately.

This is a circular argument. The Welsh approach has an escape route. The English approach makes sense if covid is low risk. But covid isn't low risk for all people.

What annoys me too is the schools in the areas which are likely to have high absenteeism are also in the areas likely to have highest risk from covid. Some schools have tens of bereaved pupils returning. The virus is in clusters and is very unevenly distributed across the country.

I think a lot of people who don't have to worry about their own health are demanding other families risk a huge amount more. Those schools with high concentrations of health-affected people are often also the most overcrowded, small urban sites, with families in small housing.

We are facing a very new and unknown situation. It is nice of the government to laud 'british common sense' but not allow us to use it!

This virus is a pig in policy terms. The families that would lose most from not being in education are also more likely to be in higher risk groups I would think, for general health improves in line with wealth?

We could choose can to live in strict and extensive isolation - just like we could choose not to go outside behind the home for leisure/exercise (as has been permitted for 6 weeks or so)

But there will be no official protections for those who elect to live by an isolation regime beyond the advice (though some charities are active in trying to seek mitigations for those whose workplaces cannot be made Covid-safe)

The shield list will continue to exist, and we retain supermarket and pharmacy delivery provision. But no additional measures beyond that.

So in terms of interface with schools and permission to be absent (which is where thread started) there is nothing that permits absences any differently to any other pupil.

I'm not saying it's not worrying, rather that it is not a reason you can rely on to carry even the slightest weight with officialdom.

@sunseekin Your dcs should be fine starting formal education later. However, due to successive D of E decisions to increase learning expectations at a younger and younger age, it could have consequences for your dcs later. Dc3 won't miss out on not going to nursery. Have a look at the EYFS for your younger two. As a teacher you'll provide a more than adequate experience for them if you look at outcomes in the EYFS. Learning at their age should be play based anyway. They'll gain far more from listening to sound patterns in songs and games than being taught phonics at 4yr old. Developmental timing is the key not age. Just make sure that DC2 has had some phonics input and find a reading scheme that s/he likes. With 3 it will be a lot of work but you're used to 30+ in a class. Doddle.

@nether

We could choose can to live in strict and extensive isolation - just like we could choose not to go outside behind the home for leisure/exercise (as has been permitted for 6 weeks or so)

But there will be no official protections for those who elect to live by an isolation regime beyond the advice (though some charities are active in trying to seek mitigations for those whose workplaces cannot be made Covid-safe)

The shield list will continue to exist, and we retain supermarket and pharmacy delivery provision. But no additional measures beyond that.

So in terms of interface with schools and permission to be absent (which is where thread started) there is nothing that permits absences any differently to any other pupil.

I'm not saying it's not worrying, rather that it is not a reason you can rely on to carry even the slightest weight with officialdom.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300399

I think this link suggests otherwise. I think the government has stated clearly that a global pandemic is a lawful reason for absence within a compulsory education system.

Like @labyrinthloafer I think that it’s all getting pretty circular. I wanted to put the government response here for anyone who wasn’t aware and also to find out if anybody knew if it’s been repealed (I think that’s quite a process and don’t think it has). I don’t think the pandemic will be over anytime soon and it’s endemic in this country.

I hope everyone is able to enjoy their summer and feels confident in making their own choices on this one.

[quote Mapless]@sunseekin Your dcs should be fine starting formal education later. However, due to successive D of E decisions to increase learning expectations at a younger and younger age, it could have consequences for your dcs later. Dc3 won't miss out on not going to nursery. Have a look at the EYFS for your younger two. As a teacher you'll provide a more than adequate experience for them if you look at outcomes in the EYFS. Learning at their age should be play based anyway. They'll gain far more from listening to sound patterns in songs and games than being taught phonics at 4yr old. Developmental timing is the key not age. Just make sure that DC2 has had some phonics input and find a reading scheme that s/he likes. With 3 it will be a lot of work but you're used to 30+ in a class. Doddle. [/quote]
Tbh I’ve tried not to draw too much on my being a teacher in relation to the homeschooling practicalities. I think all parents are teachers, it’s part of parenting. I think people undersell themselves sometimes when what they’re doing is actually pretty marvellous.

I’m often aware that I could probably control a class of 30 better than I can my own three 😂🤣.

The fact I am not juggling a job is however relevant. I would rather the resources went to making classrooms safer for people that need school so they can provide for their families.

But you’re right, they’re a lot of resources out there, accessible for all that I will be using. CGP workbooks are brilliant and very reasonably priced. Five minute on Instagram is great for year 1 and below.

My youngest is already a lot further ahead than my eldest was because they like to teach her and she wants to do what they do.

I’m more concerned about social stuff and friends etc, but at least we have FaceTime etc. I don’t think I have a perfect solution, I want our old lives but I am confident I’ve settled upon our best compromise. Unless the situation dramatically improves 🤞🤞🤞

It won’t be perfect but I think choice will make it better for all. We need schools to be able to stay open for as long as possible for those that really need them. From key workers children, through to vulnerable and those parents that need to work or feel that their or their children’s mental health is struggling.

I think the education system will be gearing up and very well placed to help all children catch up their learning gaps as things start to improve.

There are always learning gaps to assess but there will doubtlessly be more with the closing downs of bubbles and other issues. But teachers are constantly assessing prior knowledge because with the best will in the role things sometimes go in one ear and out the other 😂 it’s part of the job ❤️

I think I’ve probably wittered on enough now so I’ll try to 🤐 unless I think of anything new to offer the chat.

[quote Mapless]@sunseekin Your dcs should be fine starting formal education later. However, due to successive D of E decisions to increase learning expectations at a younger and younger age, it could have consequences for your dcs later. Dc3 won't miss out on not going to nursery. Have a look at the EYFS for your younger two. As a teacher you'll provide a more than adequate experience for them if you look at outcomes in the EYFS. Learning at their age should be play based anyway. They'll gain far more from listening to sound patterns in songs and games than being taught phonics at 4yr old. Developmental timing is the key not age. Just make sure that DC2 has had some phonics input and find a reading scheme that s/he likes. With 3 it will be a lot of work but you're used to 30+ in a class. Doddle. [/quote]
And thank you btw, I appreciate the tips very much 😃

That just means it would be lawful for the government to have restrictions in place

But it won't have, not once shielding has paused. I could dig out our letter and quote the exact words if anyone wants them. But essentially it says that previously shielded DC should attend school just like everyone else, and aimt to wash their hands frequently and keep a social distance whenever possible.

That part of the enabling legislation will not be in force at the start of term. It is however still on the books, so that shielding (or other local school closures) can be achieved quickly and legally.

Good luck @sunseekin. Maybe there will be discussions on this topic again in late August when it is more pressing.

I have no idea what we'll do. Maybe we'll start the term and withdraw promptly at the first sign of deterioration. Currently I am hoping for a meteor strike very local to school.

Anyone who was shielding (officially or just voluntarily) - I wish you very good health vibes going forwards and I also wish you empathy from any people without health issues to worry about! I hope your schools are good to you.

@labyrinthloafer

Good luck *@sunseekin*. Maybe there will be discussions on this topic again in late August when it is more pressing.

I have no idea what we'll do. Maybe we'll start the term and withdraw promptly at the first sign of deterioration. Currently I am hoping for a meteor strike very local to school.

Anyone who was shielding (officially or just voluntarily) - I wish you very good health vibes going forwards and I also wish you empathy from any people without health issues to worry about! I hope your schools are good to you.

Ah thank you, and thanks for speaking so much sense and regularly making me snort - “meteor strike”. Good luck with everything too, I have a feeling things will have moved on dramatically by September.

Can ask in what way you think this will have moved on?

I've just had a thought. Many children cannot wash hands regularly or use sanitiser at all due to skin conditions. Will this be a valid reason to home educate and keep their place?

Obviously, they will be at increased risk of contracting the virus.

I think your definition of many is wrong. Some children can't. Few schools will have handwashing or sanitising regularly once they are in a bubble.

Not really bubbles are they though in secondary and many children do have skin conditions.

Do you agree it places them at increased risk?

Are teachers going to be happy to allow hand cleaning to go out of the window?

oldbagface,

As someone with severe eczema on my hands - and mandated to wash hands at least 8x per day by the timetable for the bubble i was with - I had a special interest in this.

I - and several children with more sever skin reaction - use specific cleansers instead of school soap (I use Cetaphil at school, and Dermol 500 at home).

Other children brought in specific soaps if they found that the one school supplied aggravated skin conditions.

The risk assessment allowed for hand washing instead of hand sanitising in case of skin issues. it also allowed the use of gloves in specific circumstances - e.g. when handling children's work for marking - rather than handwashing before and after. Next term, when i will be marking more, i will keep cotton gloves in school and will almost certainly add emollient to my hands, put on cotton gloves, top with single use plastic gloves, mark, dispose of the plastic gloves, and put the cotton ones into a bag to be laundered - I used to do exactly the same when i was a lab scientist, long ago.

So yes, severe skin conditions and handwashing / sanitising are - often literally- a pain, but there are options that make it possible without sacrificing infection control.

So speaking as a teacher, I would be happy to facilitate alternatives to use of hand sanitiser or harsher school-provided soaps, but I would not expect hand cleaning to go out of the window.

You're right secondary won't be bubbles. I'll be teaching them!!

Hand hygiene will go out the window because we don't have enough sinks. We don't have enough toilets for each bubble to be separate. I'm not saying this is right, but it's the situation we are in.