No prosecution for parents petition - any thoughts?

[sunseekin]

“We deem that absence related to the coronavirus pandemic would meet the grounds prescribed. As long as the school knows where a pupil is and why they aren’t attending, there should be no risk of the pupil losing their school place.”

This was part of the Government’s response to March’s petition (90,000 + signatures) re fines and prosecutions for not attending school due to the coronavirus pandemic.

Given that the pandemic is still very much in full swing does it still apply? Or has this (part of the Coronavirus Act 2020) been caveated or repealed since then??

I know that Gareth announced that school was compulsory and that fines would be a part of that. But it’s always compulsory, but there are still legal reasons why you might not attend.

Fines would obviously be reasonable for someone who was bothered about coronavirus on a Monday but not on a Tuesday, or on holiday because of coronavirus one week but back in school the next. Which is why Gareth may have said fines were a part of things, but the response surely suggests that reasons relating to the pandemic could still be valid legal reasons.

I am at the point where I am pretty confident that I won’t be sending by two school aged children back in September. For family reasons and because I think teachers and students who need to be their for a rest array of reasons (including mental health obviously) deserve to be as safe as possible.

A positive virus mutation or the disappearance of corona would be amazing, but it seems more likely that we have an autumn/winter to get through before things can get better.

I can cope with this, science and medicine (especially recent announcements re treatments) give me hope that better times are around the corner. I’m able to home teach, see it as a way of helping keep schools safer and am now trying to get the logistics clear in my head.

I don’t think it’s fair that we lose their places, I think we only really need to think about living with it when we have seen how it behaves in all the seasons and have a better understanding of longer term impacts.

Here is the link to the full government response.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300399

Big apologies if this duplicates or has been asked elsewhere, I’m trying to keep up - promise!

@Hercwasonaroll

I have never said school that school is not compulsory on the back of the link I’ve posted. We will always have that at the core of our education system.

But do you not see that getting rid of fines makes school non compulsory in the eyes of the many. It's a change in attitude.

Expecting the school to know where they are and that they are safe is a ridiculous expectation if you are discouraging attendance. How on earth will schools do this on a large scale?

I don't agree really, I think we're saying this term is different. Leaving aside my personal opposition to fines in general (which actually rather derailed the thread!), this term is different. We are partaking in a national and global medical experiment. We have to. But it isn't an ordinary time at all.

@Underhisi

"So bubbles aren't isolated based on symptoms alone? Even if multiple people within that bubble have symptoms or if a person tests negative (given that tests have a false negative of 30%?)"

No not unless there is an outbreak in the area. If someone is a contact of someone who has tested positive they should be at home anyway regardless of any negative test they may have.

Unless the positive person is in school? In which case everyone in that bubble carries on going to school despite someone in that bubble testing positive?

Of course, having a test relies on people showing symptoms which in the case of school children isn't guaranteed so I wonder how many asymptomatic children will be in school until someone shows symptoms and prompts testing or isolation?

I think if a kid catches covid in school and has a bad reaction in England, the head will be in much tougher place personally than in Wales, whatever legal position they are in. Because in England the parents will feel they were compelled.

Do you think a head feels personal responsibility if a kid catches chicken pox? Measles? Meningitis?

"Unless the positive person is in school? In which case everyone in that bubble carries on going to school despite someone in that bubble testing positive?"

No close contacts of the positive person stay home which is likely to be the whole bubble in primary. It wouldn't necessarily have to be the whole bubble in secondary.

Yes there is the risk of it being repeatedly passed on if everyone shows no symptoms. This only works if covid in the community is at very low levels and everyone who does show any symptoms gets tested straightaway.

@Underhisi

"Unless the positive person is in school? In which case everyone in that bubble carries on going to school despite someone in that bubble testing positive?"

No close contacts of the positive person stay home which is likely to be the whole bubble in primary. It wouldn't necessarily have to be the whole bubble in secondary.

Yes there is the risk of it being repeatedly passed on if everyone shows no symptoms. This only works if covid in the community is at very low levels and everyone who does show any symptoms gets tested straightaway.

By which time an extremely vulnerable sibling or parent might have contracted it, but there are no options available to those parents other than deregister?

To those parents keeping your children at home, how long will you go on with this approach? Kids are having their educations ruined and will already have had 6 months out of school.

Covid is dangerous for some people but it’s not bubonic plague. We can’t have a whole generation of kids receiving no tuition. So you should either deregister from school and teach them yourselves or send them back imo.

@Hercwasonaroll

I have never said school that school is not compulsory on the back of the link I’ve posted. We will always have that at the core of our education system.

But do you not see that getting rid of fines makes school non compulsory in the eyes of the many. It's a change in attitude.

Expecting the school to know where they are and that they are safe is a ridiculous expectation if you are discouraging attendance. How on earth will schools do this on a large scale?

I’m quoting the government response to the petition. It seems to suggest that it is a justifiable reason. I’ve pooped the link above and at the start of the thread. I guess unworkable guidelines proves its from the government. Promise I’m not a mole 🤪

"By which time an extremely vulnerable sibling or parent might have contracted it, but there are no options available to those parents other than deregister?"

Personally I think they could be looked at as special cases if involved medics consider the family member to be at great risk. The general population who just want to keep their child off for longer -no.

@Hercwasonaroll

I think if a kid catches covid in school and has a bad reaction in England, the head will be in much tougher place personally than in Wales, whatever legal position they are in. Because in England the parents will feel they were compelled.

Do you think a head feels personal responsibility if a kid catches chicken pox? Measles? Meningitis?

I think the whole world feels different right now. I never even think if I am passing on flu, beyond normal social good manners and not snorting on people.

Covid 19 is new, novel and poorly understood. It is what it is.

@SugarbabyMilly

To those parents keeping your children at home, how long will you go on with this approach? Kids are having their educations ruined and will already have had 6 months out of school.

Covid is dangerous for some people but it’s not bubonic plague. We can’t have a whole generation of kids receiving no tuition. So you should either deregister from school and teach them yourselves or send them back imo.

Hi, it isn't that I expect anything specific, but I don't know how the first covid winter will go and that, combined with lack of confidence in our preparedness, makes me wary.

I guess we'll know when we know!

Kids are having their educations ruined and will already have had 6 months out of school

9 weeks of which were holidays. You really need to have more faith in the teaching profession who will sort out the mess as soon as they are able. In the meantime, make sure your kids are reading, buy them workbooks that are age appropriate, use Oak and Bitesize and engage with any tasks the school has sent you.

I do have faith in the teaching profession Enoughnowstop. This thread is not about that. Although I would say I'm not a teacher and on line resources etc, me WFH with 3 school aged kids requiring attention, is a poor substitute for a proper education. I realise in those 6 months roughly 9 weeks were holidays. Doesn't make it ok. Doesn't make the prospect of 6 months or longer palatable.

If you want to home school, do it properly. Leave schools to get on with teaching. Plan your child's return when you feel comfortable.

I agree OP

I also agree should be parental choice. We are clinically vulnerable and before this our son had never missed a day. He is year 1. Now we don't know what to do. He has been learning for about 2-3 hours daily at home so I'm hoping that's ok to keep him up to speed. But it's such a hard decision to make. I just don't know what to do for the best. Our other child is meant to start reception and dc 3 preschool but I know that's easier to defer. I think in honesty they have loved having this time to spend together but I don't want them to miss out socially. However I'm really worried if they brought it home we could get very ill. It feels pathetic to be so afraid but I can't help it. The ppl we know who have had it have ended up in comas and still can't work so that's not helped me to decide. I guess Sept is a long way off. I'm just praying the situation is clearer by then.

Am I being dim, who is Gareth?
I also thought the point of a bubble in schools was if any of them contacted the virus they all isolated. If that's not the case in what way is it a bubble?

Gareth maybe a misremembering of Gavin (Williamson Ed sec).

Bubbles won't isolate until at least 2 confirmed cases. HTs currently planning to inform parents after one case and parents can vote with their feet.

They aren't really bubbles at secondary. Sieves would be more accurate a description.

@scotlandg Just wanted to say sorry you've all this to think about and you are 100% not being pathetic, it is really worrying, if you're clinically vulnerable you will be very worried

Lol at sieves! Sounds that way.
Probably right about gavin/gareth

I think the only sensible way to achieve what you want to happen, without unintended consequences fro highly vulnerable children, is to require deregistration.

If there is no waiting list for the class, and nobody else arrives who needs the place, you can have it back on request at any time.

If on the other hand someone else does need the place - which as you say, you would be OK with - then it would be filled by that person.

I don't think it is reasonable to keep a school place that you don't have an intention of using, if someone else wants it.

Thank you labyrinthloafer. A further complication for us is our son has a 1 to 1, which we found hard to get. So my concern is if we didn't send him in then he would lose that and couldn't cope without her. So I feel I am over a barrel but no idea what to do. Im really worried about what to do for the best. If I wasn't clinically vulnerable it would be different but I don't see how it will suddenly be safe then. I spoke to head and explained how worried we are but she said would be fined.

• fought hard to get I mean!

To be honest if you aren't overly worried about colds, norovirus, winter flu then you don't need to be overly worried about coronavirus. Look at the stats and try and assess your own risk. Even if you are clinically vulnerable, are you under 45? Female? Weight OK?

Look at where you live and the cases in your vicinity too. If your local rate is 1 in 6000 then you don't need to worry as much.
I understand it feels really scary. Initially coronavirus was very scary. Now we have a better idea how to treat it with early oxygen intervention and more information about it on the whole.

I wish I was braver about all of this. I've been agonising about sending them back for weeks now and have literally made myself sick with worry. I have a disorder that makes me prone to blood clots which doesn't bode well for Covid and I am overweight (though lost a lot during lock down). DD1 has aspergers and was horrifically bullied both at the end of year six and in her first secondary. We have finally managed to find a perfect school for her and they have been so supportive and she was even starting to make friends. I have two younger ones in a fantastic, nurturing primary...but I am seriously considering deregistering as the thought of sending them back is just terrifying. We don't yet know what the long term impacts of Coronavirus are and I seriously think I may die if I contract it. It's just a horrible situation and I wish parents were given a choice (though realistically I know why it doesn't work like that). At least until the Spring term.

@cantkeepawayforever

I think the only sensible way to achieve what you want to happen, without unintended consequences fro highly vulnerable children, is to require deregistration.

If there is no waiting list for the class, and nobody else arrives who needs the place, you can have it back on request at any time.

If on the other hand someone else does need the place - which as you say, you would be OK with - then it would be filled by that person.

I don't think it is reasonable to keep a school place that you don't have an intention of using, if someone else wants it.

I agree with this. I do sympathise with you, OP, but I couldn't support a policy that could put the most vulnerable children at risk. These children are a higher priority than your individual choice in my opinion.

I'm with you @Beebityboo. It's a horrible decision to be faced with. I have three children and asthma. For one of my two most recent chest infections, I had an ambulance sent out to me. I doubt I would make it if I caught covid. To prepare I have increased my fitness a lot since March. I do some sort of cardio most days. I've only lost half a stone, and need to lose a lot more. However the bottom line is it's not enough. I do feel forced into an impossible decision. Schools can't really keep my dcs safe if cases increase and spike this autumn.

Of course dcs of parents, who aren't concerned whether their child receives an education, should have help to get one. But I dont fall into this group. I want my children to have an education that doesn't put me or anyone else at risk. I appreciate that there are other diseases. But there aren't currently many other ones killing 60000 people in 4 months. Of course it isn't fair that some families have no choice but to send their dcs because they can't home ed, but want to. This should alter choice though.

I don't think I am at all self centred. I am looking at what my family and I need
Who doesnt! I also contribute meaningfully to society, as do others. If I can manage to do this and home Ed then I am very fortunate - and very aware of it. I want agency in my life and choice about what happens to my health. This country gave me an education and taught me to think for myself. Well I am.

I also believe that government serves the people. Just because folks on MN can't figure out how something is possible, doesnt mean it isn't. Change is possible. Uncomfortable perhaps, but possible. If this isnt the right fight for you, or the right time, that's your decision for your family. Not mine. As pp posters have said, I'm focussing on what my family need. I'm not seeking to take resources away from others nor remove access to a school place. As another pp has said - buy age appropriate workbooks. Use bitesize and other sites. Follow learning expectations for your child's year. Find a way if you.must to home Ed. But don't criticise others for the choice.