No prosecution for parents petition - any thoughts?

[sunseekin]

“We deem that absence related to the coronavirus pandemic would meet the grounds prescribed. As long as the school knows where a pupil is and why they aren’t attending, there should be no risk of the pupil losing their school place.”

This was part of the Government’s response to March’s petition (90,000 + signatures) re fines and prosecutions for not attending school due to the coronavirus pandemic.

Given that the pandemic is still very much in full swing does it still apply? Or has this (part of the Coronavirus Act 2020) been caveated or repealed since then??

I know that Gareth announced that school was compulsory and that fines would be a part of that. But it’s always compulsory, but there are still legal reasons why you might not attend.

Fines would obviously be reasonable for someone who was bothered about coronavirus on a Monday but not on a Tuesday, or on holiday because of coronavirus one week but back in school the next. Which is why Gareth may have said fines were a part of things, but the response surely suggests that reasons relating to the pandemic could still be valid legal reasons.

I am at the point where I am pretty confident that I won’t be sending by two school aged children back in September. For family reasons and because I think teachers and students who need to be their for a rest array of reasons (including mental health obviously) deserve to be as safe as possible.

A positive virus mutation or the disappearance of corona would be amazing, but it seems more likely that we have an autumn/winter to get through before things can get better.

I can cope with this, science and medicine (especially recent announcements re treatments) give me hope that better times are around the corner. I’m able to home teach, see it as a way of helping keep schools safer and am now trying to get the logistics clear in my head.

I don’t think it’s fair that we lose their places, I think we only really need to think about living with it when we have seen how it behaves in all the seasons and have a better understanding of longer term impacts.

Here is the link to the full government response.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300399

Big apologies if this duplicates or has been asked elsewhere, I’m trying to keep up - promise!

@upthewolves I do agree I think it'll be a nightmare.

My own view is we needed creative thinking and a collective effort to get something more sensible in place but we live in a country of petty fines and 'you must you must you must'.

There's a charge of the light brigade mentality that I'm probably reacting against.

In reality very little is in place. The LA can ask for a statement of intent/values but few do.

I suspected as much. I’m curious though as to what stops families that CBA with education, disengaging in this way?

That is unlikely to change

Although the government has changed its mind many times - all primary pupils in before September? Only exam groups in at secondary?

Both of those were changed at really short notice....

@Useruseruserusee I completely get what you’re saying but I think we have to consider whether people will behave in the same way during a pandemic - ie would the fines be a deterrent or will more and more people simply deregister?

Fines might make someone bring their children in who can’t be bothered during normal times, but would they work on somebody who has genuine concerns about the pandemic (who may or may not be vulnerable?). I don’t think they would. I think people will just deregister and homeschool and how do we set up the systems and infrastructure to monitor that?

The government needs to try and understand humanity more or they’re just weeks away from similar frustrations to why people aren’t flocking to the shops / restaurants / offices.

If I thought what I was going to try and do went against the greater good I’d be thinking more about it, but I think the only thing that will support vulnerable children is safer schools.

I know I’m lucky to be able to homeschool. And I’m lucky that with three they have company. And that with my mum in a bubble, I have help. I have offered to help some people remotely at the school in the future. Bar a miracle it will be necessary.

I had my children way later than I hoped due to fertility issues, the upside being I now have more financial security to be a SAHM. But I grew up in a single parent family of four children - my mum has spoken a lot about her relief at this not happening back them. She would have had needed to send us to school. I know she’d have felt a hell of a lot happier about it if schools were as safe as possible. I have also worked in a variety of state 11-18 schools, I think I am quite well rounded and understand different viewpoints.

Like @labyrinthloafer said there is no miracle one right answer here, just lots of compromises. I don’t think trying to force people back into their old lives is going to work.

We don’t know enough about how this virus will transmit in Autumn, English classrooms; risking 30 in a room and more in a bubble is reckless. And as suggested on another thread we don’t know the impact of the flu season, including how people with flu and coronavirus will fair. When we’ve seen how it behaves at every stage of the year, I think we can be more confident.

I’ve put this post here largely because these thoughts aren’t yet being acknowledged by the media and government. Even newspapers that I respected are publishing one sided dribble at the moment.

I do think things will change, just look at the whole masks debacle. Thanks so much to those that have come out in support of choice and to those that have expressed the concerns that will need to be considered as people inevitably take their choice.

One last thing to anyone still reading (😬😴) Its such a shame that schools aren’t getting the chance to better support the vulnerable. Some of which won’t have been vulnerable or on any concern registers before all this started. Sadly I don’t think the government’s stance re fines is about supporting the vulnerable, I think it’s about creating an illusion of normal so we all go out and spend some money.

It's quite likely to be fairly chaotic this term, what with the need to isolate until test result every time you start coughing, plus the chance that you might be required to isolate as a known contact.

So schools are being urged to keep their off-site learning capacity - this will be very important for years 10 and upwards, and so much of the exam syllabus is covered in the long autumn term.

I expect that there will be little enforcement action because of the chances of disruption anyhow. Once we've got through the autumn/winter virus season, then we shall have learned a lot more about how to control transmission (we might even have a vaccine), and I expect enforcement will be back.

But generally, if you expect your DC to receive their education in school, then they need to be in school when it is open. Because it's a set of groups which learn together, and playing catch up, because you've missed somethings whilst twiddling your thumbs because you've already done others, is likely to be frustrating.

@Jrobhatch29

Regardless of what you all think should happen, the government have said school is compulsary from september. That is unlikely to change between now and then unless for some reason we are overwhelmed by cases. There is no use in hypothetical scenarios. Its school or homeschool!

What happens, the actual process?

It isn't 'Tommy isn't coming in, I'm concerned' 'Here's a fine, you're deregistered'.

There's a big bit in between.

What's the timeline?

@SmileEachDay

That is unlikely to change

Although the government has changed its mind many times - all primary pupils in before September? Only exam groups in at secondary?

Both of those were changed at really short notice....

They have no reason to change their stance unless there is a massive change is circumstances regarding the virus. Also teachers and heads are on their summer break so would therefore not be able to implement any changes between now and september.

@Waxonwaxoff0

I do think parents should be given the choice. But they shouldn't then expect the teachers to do additional work to send home to their children. If you want to keep them off you need to take the responsibility of schooling them yourself.

My DS needs to be back at school in September for a variety of reasons. The less children there are, the less likely it will be that school will have to keep shutting if a pupil tests positive.

I get your point but I think there will be enough vulnerable teachers to provide some remote support. Schools could also look for volunteers (myself and my mum are both experienced teachers and would be happy, my OH could flex some hours so I could help in the day). Schools have had no time to plan for this though, they’re trying to fathom out unworkable guidelines instead 😢

The point of fairness though - why is it fair your children can block places in school when another child can attend? what about the child who wants to go to school, the family are supportive/wanting their child to go to school, but the place in the school is being taken by a child not attending and with no known date when they will attend. Could be most of the next school year if a vaccine is not yet rolled out to the entire country (that takes time) or localised spikes continue to occur. Is that fair?

So when will there be a cut off date for a reasonable time to keep a child home from school when schools are open and places blocked to other children, stopping them from attending school.

The government is trying to balance education / some normality of life and the virus/need to protect people. No one will ever be completely accepting of what the government propose.

I like that idea LaurieMarlow

There are lots of reasons why some children did not attend school pre covid. Am sure those numbers will increase in September with covid concerns.

Schools will have enough to deal with without chasing them up, setting home school work, getting them caught up, juggling sporadic attendance, working out the covid absentee from a non covid one.

Set a home school window when they can stay on roll, require testing on return. Possibly resitting a year.

If the rules change to allow this sort of leeway, it needs to be really clear with targets and deadlines. Or kids will fall through the cracks and schools will be in an impossible position.

@AdoreTheBeach

The point of fairness though - why is it fair your children can block places in school when another child can attend? what about the child who wants to go to school, the family are supportive/wanting their child to go to school, but the place in the school is being taken by a child not attending and with no known date when they will attend. Could be most of the next school year if a vaccine is not yet rolled out to the entire country (that takes time) or localised spikes continue to occur. Is that fair?

So when will there be a cut off date for a reasonable time to keep a child home from school when schools are open and places blocked to other children, stopping them from attending school.

The government is trying to balance education / some normality of life and the virus/need to protect people. No one will ever be completely accepting of what the government propose.

If there was a child in catchment who couldn’t attend school in catchment or reasonably close by I would be happy (not dancing around the room happy but happy accepting) to give up our places.

But there are illnesses that my children could catch, and have always been able to catch much more easily (as there is no question that certain illnesses are much more prevalent in children than covid seems to be). If my children caught them they have devastating and potentially life changing effects on our family due to other health issues.
Why do you get to keep your children off, and maintain your place because of Corona, but if I wanted to make a choice which would keep my family safe from illnesses which can (and have) caused much more damage to us, I would be fined / lose our places.

Sorry. This can't work for just one illness. Other people are affected by other things and we have always just had to suck it up and get on with it.

@tilder so I agree, that would be a compromise that would need consideration. And time to consider....
And I also agree with the other poster about summer holidays. Given there were six weeks of holidays the government really should have considered and given more options re plans B and C etc. It’s just going to be a rush. The situation won’t be as schools left it come September.

@SmileEachDay I am not sure how Wales are addressing the things you raise - I agree there are ethical and practical issues.

We go in a loop - because in our law the parent is responsible for the child's education, unless they register them in a school. Once registered the state school has legal duties. But if the parent doesn't send, the school can't fulfill them. But the state can't actually grab the child and place them at a desk without due process, because the parent is ultimately responsible for the child's education. The school also can't just dismiss without due process.

The fines never really aligned with our education system, in my view, and I opposed their introduction. They were an easy way to look like someone was 'doing something' but they fall disproportionately on the most disadvantaged (we all know there are people who happily pay the fine and go on holiday anyway) without tackling the real issues.

Now the fines will be used to bully in a pandemic. It's not a good look, and it wasn't what they were intended to be used for.

The school which sends you home for being late sounds a good option just be late if cases start to rise.

I think there will be enough vulnerable teachers to provide some remote support. Schools could also look for volunteers

These 2 statements show how naieve you are.

@Hercwasonaroll

I think there will be enough vulnerable teachers to provide some remote support. Schools could also look for volunteers

These 2 statements show how naieve you are.

Quite. The UK was 4000 teachers short BEFORE the pandemic.......

Why do you get to keep your children off, and maintain your place because of Corona, but if I wanted to make a choice which would keep my family safe from illnesses which can (and have) caused much more damage to us, I would be fined / lose our places. Sorry. This can't work for just one illness. Other people are affected by other things and we have always just had to suck it up and get on with it. 1000% agree! The idea that nothing is as bad as corona is really wearing thin!

@Hercwasonaroll

I think there will be enough vulnerable teachers to provide some remote support. Schools could also look for volunteers

These 2 statements show how naieve you are.

Just to be clear, I’m obviously not claiming to have found the perfect answer to educating during pandemic. Hopefully that’s obvious from the thread 🤞

If the rules change to allow this sort of leeway, it needs to be really clear with targets and deadlines.

I totally agree.

But it would be good to find a way to accommodate the genuinely committed like labyrinthloafer without leaving it open to the piss takers and those who just want to suit themselves.

I see what a nightmare it would be for teachers to accommodate the kind of parents who think they can send/not send willy nilly and not face consequences.

@Hercwasonaroll

I think there will be enough vulnerable teachers to provide some remote support. Schools could also look for volunteers

These 2 statements show how naieve you are.

You really want a volunteer teaching your child? It took me 3 years of university, 10 years of teaching and I am still learning! It is not that easy. Also vulnerable teachers, rightly or wrongly, are back in school too!

At the end of the day the vast majority of local authorities have between 1 and 10 cases now. That is not enough for the government to say school is optional. Schools may be closed for short periods of time in local hotspots.

@Jrobhatch29

Wales has lower prevalence and is not enforcing fines. I think that is what England should do.

@OnlyFoolsnMothers

Why do you get to keep your children off, and maintain your place because of Corona, but if I wanted to make a choice which would keep my family safe from illnesses which can (and have) caused much more damage to us, I would be fined / lose our places. Sorry. This can't work for just one illness. Other people are affected by other things and we have always just had to suck it up and get on with it. 1000% agree! The idea that nothing is as bad as corona is really wearing thin!

As someone who is disabled, and has had to make choices to do with health and our family for decades, it's feeling quite insulting actually, that everyone suddenly is asking for things like being able to take children out of school to mitigate risk etc... Well , I've been living like this for years, taking risks, living with them. Only the world doesn't give a shit when it's just a few disabled people / children. Suddenly though when it's something that can affect everyone, there's PPE at work, provision to make people safe, keeping children away from school...

Where has this been already to keep those of us who are at risk from other things safe? Where are the provisions to make it easy for us to work at home because we have been too unwell to go into work?
Ha! No. Only when it affects everyone does it happen.

[quote labyrinthloafer]@Jrobhatch29

Wales has lower prevalence and is not enforcing fines. I think that is what England should do.[/quote]
But they haven't.
So the choice is send your child or decide to homeschool.
You cannot expect the school to hold a place until there is a vaccine. You cant decide to dip in and out depending on how happy you are with local cases and you certainly should not be playing the system by making them late so they get sent home like someone suggested.
There is no point in "the goverment should". They haven't and holding onto "but they might at the last minute" is silly.
Covid is not the only thing that matters!

Also in my school, if school was optional, nobody would come. Not for fear of the virus but because of the effort in bringing them.

You cant decide to dip in and out depending on how happy you are with local cases

Yes i don’t think this is fair on the school at all. How are they supposed to manage that?

Also, not enforcing fines plays into the hands of the general school avoiders.

But I think you should be allowed to homeschool for a specified period if you wish and you’re going to do it properly.