No prosecution for parents petition - any thoughts?

[sunseekin]

“We deem that absence related to the coronavirus pandemic would meet the grounds prescribed. As long as the school knows where a pupil is and why they aren’t attending, there should be no risk of the pupil losing their school place.”

This was part of the Government’s response to March’s petition (90,000 + signatures) re fines and prosecutions for not attending school due to the coronavirus pandemic.

Given that the pandemic is still very much in full swing does it still apply? Or has this (part of the Coronavirus Act 2020) been caveated or repealed since then??

I know that Gareth announced that school was compulsory and that fines would be a part of that. But it’s always compulsory, but there are still legal reasons why you might not attend.

Fines would obviously be reasonable for someone who was bothered about coronavirus on a Monday but not on a Tuesday, or on holiday because of coronavirus one week but back in school the next. Which is why Gareth may have said fines were a part of things, but the response surely suggests that reasons relating to the pandemic could still be valid legal reasons.

I am at the point where I am pretty confident that I won’t be sending by two school aged children back in September. For family reasons and because I think teachers and students who need to be their for a rest array of reasons (including mental health obviously) deserve to be as safe as possible.

A positive virus mutation or the disappearance of corona would be amazing, but it seems more likely that we have an autumn/winter to get through before things can get better.

I can cope with this, science and medicine (especially recent announcements re treatments) give me hope that better times are around the corner. I’m able to home teach, see it as a way of helping keep schools safer and am now trying to get the logistics clear in my head.

I don’t think it’s fair that we lose their places, I think we only really need to think about living with it when we have seen how it behaves in all the seasons and have a better understanding of longer term impacts.

Here is the link to the full government response.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300399

Big apologies if this duplicates or has been asked elsewhere, I’m trying to keep up - promise!

@LaurieMarlow

It is also about not accepting there isn't a blanket solution for complicated situations.

Of course. But do you not see the problems that not enforcing fines presents when it comes to parents who CBA with the education system.

Exactly. People are thinking on a very personal level rather than what is best on the whole. If we say school is optional there will be some parents who home school their children well and feed them. There will also be thousands and thousands who say "great, I dont have to bother getting up now". Those children wont get their school meal they rely on and will be left to their own devices. That is why they are issuing fines.

There are always the tiny minority of persistent absentees even with fines. But the fines definitely discourage the "have a day off for your birthday" crowd. They also helped parents to see the gravitas of the situation. Plenty of laws without criminal charges/fines etc aren't enforceable in society and it shows. Look at weed smoking.

[quote Hercwasonaroll]@EvilPea What has been so bad from them?[/quote]
@hercwasonaroll
They haven’t really mentioned covid, they have shared no plans about anything, not even hand washing or lunches, there’s been no reassurance or even mention that we are in a pandemic.

Given they are also starting the school there’s no introduction from teachers so no prep for the children, they don’t know where they go on the first day, whose class they are in, if they are in their mates class.
They start in September, full time and that’s that.

It’s a huge school with a huge catchment so most get bussed in, nothing about that.

"Which presumably is why Wales are taking the route they are, to avoid wasting resources in the way you describe.

Which is why I think our government have chosen the wrong path."

Tbf Wales has around 500,000 under 16s. We have about 10 million in England. Bit more manageable in wales...

@EvilPea If its anything like our place then most of those things the school won't even know yet. We haven't decided groups, timetables or routines yet. We're awaiting guidance from the government mid August before any firm information goes out. I understand the anxiety of not knowing but look out for information towards the end of the holidays.

Which presumably is why Wales are taking the route they are, to avoid wasting resources in the way you describe.

Which is why I think our government have chosen the wrong path.

I disagree. Parents have the choice to homeschool currently. That choice remains in September. However if your child is registered at school they should be attending. Making any kind of national statement that school is non compulsory/won't be fined leads to non attendance from those who are most vulnerable. On an individual level you may be a fantastic home educator and your child will be fine. National policy cannot be based on individual level decisions.

@LaurieMarlow

I understand the problem of non-attendance but the answer isn't fines.

But how do you suggest ensuring attendance without fines for the disengaged? At a point when schools have a huge amount on their plate.

My point is given schools will have so much on their plate, is it wise to waste energy pursuing a small number for a short term issue?

Or targeting resources where really needed?

Which is why I think wales' approach makes more sense.

@Jrobhatch29

"Which presumably is why Wales are taking the route they are, to avoid wasting resources in the way you describe.

Which is why I think our government have chosen the wrong path."

Tbf Wales has around 500,000 under 16s. We have about 10 million in England. Bit more manageable in wales...

That's not relevant as they are all split up in LAs and schools, just as here.

Big countries can be organised better than England manages it!

My point is given schools will have so much on their plate, is it wise to waste energy pursuing a small number for a short term issue?

Absolutely as these are the most vulnerable children who’ve already been most affected by the measures taken. I can’t believe you’re actually asking this frankly. Do you think we should just be giving up on these kids?

[quote Hercwasonaroll]@EvilPea If its anything like our place then most of those things the school won't even know yet. We haven't decided groups, timetables or routines yet. We're awaiting guidance from the government mid August before any firm information goes out. I understand the anxiety of not knowing but look out for information towards the end of the holidays.[/quote]
@hercwasonaroll

I really do understand that nothing is firm. But there’s been no acknowledgement of it even existing, which just feels really unreassuring. The other secondaries have all seemed to manage it, with video introductions and plans emailed over. But this one haven’t, Id feel more reassured by
“We aim to...”
“Normally we run like this...”
But instead we’ve got your in on the 4th September at 8.45, here’s your uniform list.
I am fairly relaxed about Covid, the school situation and getting back to normal life. But it needs to be done safely and even for me, it’s feeling untrustworthy and unsafe.
Mine were back in school the minute they could be, but I’m not feeling the same about secondary in the slightest.

@LaurieMarlow

My point is given schools will have so much on their plate, is it wise to waste energy pursuing a small number for a short term issue?

Absolutely as these are the most vulnerable children who’ve already been most affected by the measures taken. I can’t believe you’re actually asking this frankly. Do you think we should just be giving up on these kids?

It won't be a small number either. Social services would also be overwhelmed by referrals from concerned schools who are no longer seeing their vulnerable children.

We haven't sent our plans over because we don't know what they are yet. Staff don't have timetables and we don't know what groups we will have. There are 3 possible options and we're waiting for the guidance.

We have done videos and intros to the school however.

There is an illusion of safety. Year group bubbles cannot be "safe".

Didn’t want to read all but to know is there a petition so I can sign? Thsnks

@LaurieMarlow

My point is given schools will have so much on their plate, is it wise to waste energy pursuing a small number for a short term issue?

Absolutely as these are the most vulnerable children who’ve already been most affected by the measures taken. I can’t believe you’re actually asking this frankly. Do you think we should just be giving up on these kids?

Oh this again. Someone always lobs this accusation in. I meant - what is the point pursuing the small number of otherwise well attending parents who are concerned about school only due to covid.

I don't think we should give up on any kids. The government has cut social workers, youth clubs/workers, surestart, school budgets, council budgets libraries, drugs services, std clinics, educational support... The government has already given up many things that would help those kids.

I don't think it is helpful to conflate two separate issues. And please don't put words in my mouth - I wouldn't give up on anyone.

I just think Wales is taking the correct approach.

People have always had the right to deregister and homeschool, they can do so in September if they don't want their children to go back. Teaching a class and providing online work to the same standard is unrealistic, therefore it's good they are being firm and saying what the deal is.

Also the argument only works if you are in the extremely privelaged position that nobody in your house goes to work. My children are obviously off school now and I am on maternity. However my partner goes to work and there has been covid cases last week.... So whilst not at school they are still at risk of getting it. This would be the case for many, many families. Keeping them off school doesn't mean they won't get covid!

I meant - what is the point pursuing the small number of otherwise well attending parents who are concerned about school only due to covid.

How do you discern between the otherwise well attenders that aren't attending due to covid that do educate their children, and the otherwise well attenders not attending due to covid and doing nothing at home?

@Hercwasonaroll

We haven't sent our plans over because we don't know what they are yet. Staff don't have timetables and we don't know what groups we will have. There are 3 possible options and we're waiting for the guidance.

We have done videos and intros to the school however.

There is an illusion of safety. Year group bubbles cannot be "safe".

Oh yes. The year group bubble safety aspect is bollocks, given siblings soon pop that. I am realistic in that actually it is almost impossible for secondary’s and I know nothing is a firm plan at the moment. But it’s just radio silence about the situation is not the reassurance new starter parents need.

Yes I agree radio silence isn't great. We've sent a "sorry we have no plans yet" letter with a video of the school and staff saying hi. I've had very little from my child's pre school but looking on their website there is more there. Annoying that they didn't send at least a link to it!

I don't think it is helpful to conflate two separate issues

But by removing fines you do conflate the issues. And you haven’t come up with any better way of ensuring attendance for vulnerable children. It’s just not a priority according to you.

You’re coming across as a bit self centred now. I had some sympathy initially, but now you seem to be saying that schools shouldn’t use precious resources ensuring vulnerable kids get taken to school, but should be taking on extra work catching up/working round your children while send them in only when it suits you. That doesn’t sound very fair.

I agree Laurie. The issues aren't separate at all. They are complex and intertwined. Part time attendance is the worst of all worlds for teachers!

I'm on the fence here.
Some people will have genuine concerns/be shielding and I completely understand that. I agree there will be those that just dont bother.
Surely the schools are aware of the ones that dont bother so maybe they should be top of the list for keeping engaged with work.
I think until perhaps half term maybe Christmas parents should have the choice as that is when we should have a good idea how covid behaves.

@Hercwasonaroll

I meant - what is the point pursuing the small number of otherwise well attending parents who are concerned about school only due to covid.

How do you discern between the otherwise well attenders that aren't attending due to covid that do educate their children, and the otherwise well attenders not attending due to covid and doing nothing at home?

I accept this is difficult. But it is ethically more correct. And arguably more beneficial to do something properly targeted rather than the gesture of a fine for everyone.

I don't for a second think I'll get what I want, England is where it is.

But I don't think it is right, and that's that. I think the Welsh approach is the right one.

And maybe one day, we'll actually address why we have a large number of people who don't see school.as valuable, which is a totally different issue.

Allowing parents to homeschool temporarily will help to reduce numbers in the school building which is a good thing.
However if the government allows parents to decide whether to send their children to school (rather than formally withdrawing them and fully homeschooling) then those children who have been most at risk, neglected and abused over this last few months will continue to suffer.

Those parents will not send their children back to school - they will claim concern about covid as the reason. That CANNOT be allowed to happen.

Not all parents are capable/supportive/attentive, which many on MN seem to forget. The spread of covid is not the only risk

Parents can formerly withdraw their child and homeschool and reapply for a place when they are happy for their child to attend. Anything else means that vulnerable children will fly under the radar.