No prosecution for parents petition - any thoughts?

[sunseekin]

“We deem that absence related to the coronavirus pandemic would meet the grounds prescribed. As long as the school knows where a pupil is and why they aren’t attending, there should be no risk of the pupil losing their school place.”

This was part of the Government’s response to March’s petition (90,000 + signatures) re fines and prosecutions for not attending school due to the coronavirus pandemic.

Given that the pandemic is still very much in full swing does it still apply? Or has this (part of the Coronavirus Act 2020) been caveated or repealed since then??

I know that Gareth announced that school was compulsory and that fines would be a part of that. But it’s always compulsory, but there are still legal reasons why you might not attend.

Fines would obviously be reasonable for someone who was bothered about coronavirus on a Monday but not on a Tuesday, or on holiday because of coronavirus one week but back in school the next. Which is why Gareth may have said fines were a part of things, but the response surely suggests that reasons relating to the pandemic could still be valid legal reasons.

I am at the point where I am pretty confident that I won’t be sending by two school aged children back in September. For family reasons and because I think teachers and students who need to be their for a rest array of reasons (including mental health obviously) deserve to be as safe as possible.

A positive virus mutation or the disappearance of corona would be amazing, but it seems more likely that we have an autumn/winter to get through before things can get better.

I can cope with this, science and medicine (especially recent announcements re treatments) give me hope that better times are around the corner. I’m able to home teach, see it as a way of helping keep schools safer and am now trying to get the logistics clear in my head.

I don’t think it’s fair that we lose their places, I think we only really need to think about living with it when we have seen how it behaves in all the seasons and have a better understanding of longer term impacts.

Here is the link to the full government response.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300399

Big apologies if this duplicates or has been asked elsewhere, I’m trying to keep up - promise!

Those parents will not send their children back to school - they will claim concern about covid as the reason. That CANNOT be allowed to happen.

This!!

But it is ethically more correct.
How is it ethically more correct to give the message that school is non compulsory leading to the most vulnerable not attending?

There are going to be many social reasons why parents are reluctant to send children in, full time, not least the test, trace, isolate system.

Imagine if you are a working parent and frequently have to keep your child off school because members of their bubble are awaiting test results, or have tested positive? Some primary schools are going to have bubbles of 90 children, how.many occasions will quarantine happen? How many schools will be closing just through the numbers of staff having to isolate (bearing in mind pupils and teachers will be going elsewhere other than school and might trigger test and trace that way).

There will also be families caring for elderly or vulnerable relatives - how on earth will they cope? It's so difficult to isolate members of the same household so how do parents prevent a child bringing Covid home.from.school.and unwittingly infecting a very vulnerable sibling?

In my view, government would have been much better to implement return to school on a rota basis so that at least parents have some certainty about when children will be in and with smaller numbers bubbles can be smaller and social distancing maintained - hopefully that keeps infection numbers right down.

The current plans just seem entirely unfeasible, particularly in secondary schools with bubbles of 200+ and staff teaching all bubbles. Does that mean if one bubble is quarantined that all staff also quarantine, effectively closing the school?

@LaurieMarlow

I don't think it is helpful to conflate two separate issues

But by removing fines you do conflate the issues. And you haven’t come up with any better way of ensuring attendance for vulnerable children. It’s just not a priority according to you.

You’re coming across as a bit self centred now. I had some sympathy initially, but now you seem to be saying that schools shouldn’t use precious resources ensuring vulnerable kids get taken to school, but should be taking on extra work catching up/working round your children while send them in only when it suits you. That doesn’t sound very fair.

I answered this above. My view is schools shouldn't waste resources on people who only have the issue of covid, so they can target support to those with more concerning issues.

I have never said I wanted extra support. I want the school to use their time and resources on those that really need it. I can't help believing SD is needed in secondary environments, this is what I think.

It is funny how one comes over online. Self-centred is really not very me. I just don't agree with fines and never did and doubly don't now!

Rota system would be ridiculous for working parents. Teachers have children too!

Elderly and vulnerable have been told they don't need to shield from 1st August.

You won't be fined for isolating.

"Imagine if you are a working parent and frequently have to keep your child off school because members of their bubble are awaiting test results"

Only the child awaiting test results stays home.

I have never said I wanted extra support.

But how are teachers supposed to deal with your children without creating extra work?

When they eventually show up, teachers won’t know where they are on the curriculum, whether they’ve covered what the rest of class has, so there’ll be time and effort there, finding out, catching them up with the rest.

Then it sounds like you want the right to pull them again when it suits, which means the same process happening again.

It’s just unfeasible for teachers to cover the curriculum properly, with all students, if everyone is allowed to come and go as they please and are doing god knows what when they’re at home.

Surely you can see that?

@labyrinthloafer can i ask out of genuine interest why you dont want them to go back? Are you in a hotspot. If children do get it they will most likely get a cough and / or temp or no symptoms at all. If they pass it to you, you will most likely be the same. I can understand more caution in a vulnerable household. But really we need to move beyond all this focus on one illness.

@Hercwasonaroll

Those parents will not send their children back to school - they will claim concern about covid as the reason. That CANNOT be allowed to happen.

This!!

But it is ethically more correct.
How is it ethically more correct to give the message that school is non compulsory leading to the most vulnerable not attending?

I can't stay as need to work now

All I can say is, I don't agree with fines, I never did, I think they are more wrong under current circs, I prefer wales' approach, I think vulnerable children in general should have far more support, I do not believe me paying a fine I can afford will make a blind bit of difference to their lives, I don't want extra help from teachers, I think teachers work very hard. Hope that covers everything!

And I genuinely have no idea what I will do in September!

But fines are wrong! Write to your mp is all I can suggest, especially if your are in a Tory seat.

@Hercwasonaroll

Rota system would be ridiculous for working parents. Teachers have children too!

Elderly and vulnerable have been told they don't need to shield from 1st August.

You won't be fined for isolating.

A rota would be worse than constantly in and out with no notice?

If they implement the same rules as early March IE any symptoms and you have to self isolate there will be a lot of disruption with staff being off frequently if they develop a new cough, especially over winter. My son's school was only able to stay open because parents kept so many children off that school were able to condense the remaining students into a handful of classes.

Depending on the rules around isolating bubbles, how frequently will whole bubbles be sent home?

As for shielding being paused - yes I know but that doesn't mean the deshielded are no longer vulnerable. Their vulnerability remains the same. Their risk if they catch it is the same in September as it was in March. If a sibling is at school with 30 other students packed into a class their chances of catching it have got to be higher than if they were in a class of 15 socially distanced. If that child has it, asymptomatically or pre symptomatic and there's an extremely vulnerable sibling or parent at home that could be very serious for that family.

This is a huge balancing act for everyone but it seems incredible that the government approach for education is just everyone back in as normal.

I think vulnerable children in general should have far more support

I agree with this.

I do not believe me paying a fine I can afford will make a blind bit of difference to their lives

No one is saying it will. However changing government policy to "school is non compulsory" will make a difference to their lives. Surely you can see the difference.

@LaurieMarlow

Our society is very low on empathy.

I don’t think that’s fair at all. It’s about logistics, the importance of getting an education and not wanting children to fall through the cracks.

I think the cracks get bigger if you force people to withdraw. How can society look after a model where lots of people homeschool that has suddenly popped up??

The schools get funding decided for the following year mid October (please correct me if I’m wrong, my last job was in 16-18). It’s awarded per student I think, less funding may save money but it wouldn’t be great for the children in school if everyone who wants to temporary homeschool is forced to withdraw.

Whole bubbles being sent home will need at least 2 positive cases and is in consultation with PHE.

A rota is worse. I couldn't get childcare to enable me to teach if my kids were in on a rota. It's going to be a balancing act for sure.

@Underhisi

"Imagine if you are a working parent and frequently have to keep your child off school because members of their bubble are awaiting test results"

Only the child awaiting test results stays home.

What happens if there are several students awaiting tests within the same bubble?

How about if teachers have symptoms? Do they still isolate for seven days? Or if they are put into quarantine due to test and trace from outside of school - who then teaches their classes? You can see how easily staff shortages are going to massively disrupt schools.

but it wouldn’t be great for the children in school if everyone who wants to temporary homeschool is forced to withdraw.

Which is why I suggested that people should be able to commit to a year of HSing, while keeping their school place.

What wont work is a half in/half out model based on parents whims.

And that should affect funding, in an ideal world.

shouldnt

@Hercwasonaroll

Which presumably is why Wales are taking the route they are, to avoid wasting resources in the way you describe.

Which is why I think our government have chosen the wrong path.

I disagree. Parents have the choice to homeschool currently. That choice remains in September. However if your child is registered at school they should be attending. Making any kind of national statement that school is non compulsory/won't be fined leads to non attendance from those who are most vulnerable. On an individual level you may be a fantastic home educator and your child will be fine. National policy cannot be based on individual level decisions.

Which is what I’ve outlined at the start. It is compulsory to attend but there are legal reasons that can be given for not attending. The government’s response to the petition states that the pandemic can be a legal reason providing that the school knows where the child is and that they are safe?

Have you clicked the link - it’s worth a read and is an official government response. I think there is no argument for us all to be having? It can be a legitimate reason and the school / LA can pursue those cases where they think child protection issues are at stake which I guess would include instances where children have a history of unauthorised attendances or concerning home lives.

I’m not claiming this is perfect. But time for the schools to think about it would be helpful and make it more perfect.

This is my interpretation of what the government is saying here....

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300399

Does anyone else read it like that??

@Hercwasonaroll

I think vulnerable children in general should have far more support

I agree with this.

I do not believe me paying a fine I can afford will make a blind bit of difference to their lives

No one is saying it will. However changing government policy to "school is non compulsory" will make a difference to their lives. Surely you can see the difference.

School attendance was still required pre fines.

"Depending on the rules around isolating bubbles, how frequently will whole bubbles be sent home?"

At primary the whole class is likely to be sent home if someone in it tests positive. At secondary with large bubbles it is unlikely to be the whole bubble unless it is an outbreak. This is in the context of very low levels of covid - it is nearly a month since there has been a case in my area. Things may change if it looks like levels are increasing again.

@Hercwasonaroll

I think vulnerable children in general should have far more support

I agree with this.

I do not believe me paying a fine I can afford will make a blind bit of difference to their lives

No one is saying it will. However changing government policy to "school is non compulsory" will make a difference to their lives. Surely you can see the difference.

Just to clarify, as I don’t want to be misunderstood - it’s the teacher in me!

I have never said school that school is not compulsory on the back of the link I’ve posted. We will always have that at the core of our education system.

I just think that it states very clearly that the pandemic can be a reason not to attend. It also contains a caveat re the school knowing where the children are and that the children are safe.

We aren’t going to have a perfect solution in September but we can try and work for a better one. But that would take time, time, which is just ticking away. And the way in which the fine thing has been highlighted in England is closing down conversations between schools and home. Everybody is watching and waiting, but plans and preparation to take care of individual circumstances take time.

School attendance was still required pre fines.

And it has improved since.

In your circumstances a fine as an encouragement/incentive to attend isn't required. In many cases fines are needed.

@Underhisi

"Depending on the rules around isolating bubbles, how frequently will whole bubbles be sent home?"

At primary the whole class is likely to be sent home if someone in it tests positive. At secondary with large bubbles it is unlikely to be the whole bubble unless it is an outbreak. This is in the context of very low levels of covid - it is nearly a month since there has been a case in my area. Things may change if it looks like levels are increasing again.

So bubbles aren't isolated based on symptoms alone? Even if multiple people within that bubble have symptoms or if a person tests negative (given that tests have a false negative of 30%?)

I have never said school that school is not compulsory on the back of the link I’ve posted. We will always have that at the core of our education system.

But do you not see that getting rid of fines makes school non compulsory in the eyes of the many. It's a change in attitude.

Expecting the school to know where they are and that they are safe is a ridiculous expectation if you are discouraging attendance. How on earth will schools do this on a large scale?

This term is an experiment, it can't not be - but it is one. And Wales is recognising that I think.

I think if a kid catches covid in school and has a bad reaction in England, the head will be in much tougher place personally than in Wales, whatever legal position they are in. Because in England the parents will feel they were compelled.

"So bubbles aren't isolated based on symptoms alone? Even if multiple people within that bubble have symptoms or if a person tests negative (given that tests have a false negative of 30%?)"

No not unless there is an outbreak in the area. If someone is a contact of someone who has tested positive they should be at home anyway regardless of any negative test they may have.