Children have been particularly impacted by this outbreak in Leicester

[DomDoesWotHeWants]

Schools will be closed as Leicester goes into lock down again.

Hancock confirmed on Sky news this morning that children could pass on the virus.

So why do people expect teachers to go back to work in September with no social distancing or PPE?

So many people here say it has to happen but at what risk to school staff? Do people think it's ok to put them at risk?

I don't.

Kids spread it, we’ve always known that. But if teachers stand at least 1m or 2m away at the front of the class, surely they can teach. The risks of kids not going back full-time are too high.
Personally I’d have no problem with teachers wearing a visor as long as schools go back! Or teach behind a Perspex screen

Children have the potential to a) catch it and b) pass it on. That's reality

At the same rate as adults? Do we actually have any evidence for that? No. We have lots of evidence saying they do, and just as much saying they don't. We have no idea.

The point is that they need an education. Adults are still working, socialising, golfing (ffs!) But children are doing...... What? Not an awful lot.

I read somewhere today (can't remember where now ) that a lot of the Leicester cases are associated with 5 factories. So, although children may be catching it, it may be coming from outbreaks in the factories.

Factories do seem to be an issue with spreading coronavirus

Aren't the teachers all going to be constantly off sick if there's only 1m distance at the front and all the kids breathing coughing shouting etc is facing that way?

Didn't happen during the 2/3 weeks leading up to the the peak of the infection (when incidentally all the schools were still open and, given the community transmission rates at the time, each school must have had a large proportion of asymptomatic super spreading vectors in the classroom without so much of a sniff of social distancing and regular hand washing going on) then I very much doubt it is going to happen now when the rate of tranmission within the community is so much lower than it was then.

@TrustTheGeneGenie opening without precautions/ back to normal is pretty much exactly what is being suggested from September

@pennylane83

Aren't the teachers all going to be constantly off sick if there's only 1m distance at the front and all the kids breathing coughing shouting etc is facing that way?

Didn't happen during the 2/3 weeks leading up to the the peak of the infection (when incidentally all the schools were still open and, given the community transmission rates at the time, each school must have had a large proportion of asymptomatic super spreading vectors in the classroom without so much of a sniff of social distancing and regular hand washing going on) then I very much doubt it is going to happen now when the rate of tranmission within the community is so much lower than it was then.

The peak happened after schools closed but in the weeks preceding schools partially closing there were plenty of schools which were totally shut due to insufficient healthy staff. There was a measure of sd at that time too along with increased hand washing.

[quote Redwinestillfine]@TrustTheGeneGenie opening without precautions/ back to normal is pretty much exactly what is being suggested from September[/quote]
Are they? Because I don't remember ever having to isolate a full class or year when a classmate became ill. I don't remember having to drop GCSEs to focus on maths and English either.

Realistically they can't impose hundreds of regulations because they're impossible. Would you honestly rather we just knocked education on the head all together? Because realistically that's the alternative isn't it?

@Mistlewoeandwhine

My healthy 14 yr old had it ‘mildly’ and was ill as hell. Non stop ibuprofen and paracetamol for 14 days and didn’t eat anything for 15 days, just slept and cried because his throat was agony. He was nearly hospitalised on day 10 due to his heartbeat being so fast. His eyes were bright red, they were so bloodshot. We did the test at day 11 but it came back negative however DH also had the same symptoms and developed Covid fingers so we definitely think they had it. DH is on week 5 and still wiped out. Anyone who thinks that not dying = being fine needs their head looking at.

I agree with this and really worry. There are tens and tens of thousands of people who are facing long term health problems, oxygen needs, unable to work.

I can't understand why parents aren't frightened of catching it and ending up unable to work, their children can of course bring the virus home.

The peak happened after schools closed but in the weeks preceding schools partially closing there were plenty of schools which were totally shut due to insufficient healthy staff. There was a measure of sd at that time too along with increased hand washing

But there's 0 evidence that all those teachers were Ill because they'd caught it off germy horrible children is there?

They could have caught it from friends, family, partner via work, supermarket, pub etc.

I agree with this and really worry. There are tens and tens of thousands of people who are facing long term health problems, oxygen needs, unable to work

We can't say if anyone will have "long term" health issues because nobody has had it long enough to tell. I would imagine this is a small minority of people.

I can't understand why parents aren't frightened of catching it and ending up unable to work, their children can of course bring the virus home

Because the serious illness / death rate is tiny. I've also caught other things which actually DID leave me with long term damage so, I'm willing to take my chances as a mostly healthy 24 year old so my child has an education and a happy life. The likelihood of my sudden death from covid is tiny.

The peak happened after schools closed but in the weeks preceding schools partially closing there were plenty of schools which were totally shut due to insufficient healthy staff. There was a measure of sd at that time too along with increased hand washing

There wasn't social distancing going on during that time - certainly not in schools, increased hand washing yes but not distancing between tables, in corridors, banning of school assemblies etc. And there was insuffienct staff because people were being forced into isolating for 14 days due to having a sniffle (not becuase they had any of the major symptoms) and which ordinarily wouldn't have stopped them from working.

Something that I think would help partially solve the argument of just how infectious being in a school is, is if all teachers, TAs, school cleaners, caterers etc were given the antibody test. That way we could see just how many staff have infact had the virus given it was rife within teh community when schools were still open and that schools have been looking after keyworker children ever since. Of course, we wouldn't now know for sure if they picked it up from the school environment or from elsewhere but if huge numbers of staff all across the country showed they had had the virus, rather than just in the areas of the country that we already know to be the most heavily infected, then it would point to schools being more infectious. Equally it would also show that it isn't as deadly as is being made out (which is where the fear seems to be). Certainly not a pleasant virus to have admittedly but still not likely to kill you off.

I am not sure that anyone other than the particularly wishful thinkers and cherry pickers really believed that children somehow magically wouldn't spread the virus around to adults and each other. It's a respiratory virus, spread by droplets. Surely by now we all know a Government climb down when we see one?

@TrustTheGeneGenie

I agree with this and really worry. There are tens and tens of thousands of people who are facing long term health problems, oxygen needs, unable to work

We can't say if anyone will have "long term" health issues because nobody has had it long enough to tell. I would imagine this is a small minority of people.

I can't understand why parents aren't frightened of catching it and ending up unable to work, their children can of course bring the virus home

Because the serious illness / death rate is tiny. I've also caught other things which actually DID leave me with long term damage so, I'm willing to take my chances as a mostly healthy 24 year old so my child has an education and a happy life. The likelihood of my sudden death from covid is tiny.

The serious illness rate is not tiny. There is a large pool of survivors with serious organ, not just lung, damage.

I don't understand why so many in the UK are still so keen to minimise this.

I read somewhere today (can't remember where now ) that a lot of the Leicester cases are associated with 5 factories. So, although children may be catching it, it may be coming from outbreaks in the factories.
^
Factories do seem to be an issue with spreading coronavirus^.

They certainly are. People spending time in close proximity to the same few dozen people several days a week, where there's shouting and talking etc is a risk.

But why have the government closed the schools again?

Perhaps the teachers are all married to factory workers?

Or the teachers moonlight in the factories at weekends?

Or maybe the children catch it from factory working parents and pass it on to peers and teachers? ( And the reverse obviously.)

Because as we know...Children can a) catch it, and b) pass it on.

And until we stop denying that reality and deal with it, it won't be safe for the children to go back to school.

Pretending otherwise just means schools closing weeks after they opened again.

If you work with children then it's useful to read the research for yourself. It shows that children can catch and spread the virus; they are less likely to catch it however and therefore less likely to have it in order to spread it. Most spread comes from a few symptomatic individuals, so isolation is important. Given that cases are extremely low in many areas (and dropping), that makes the risk to teachers or each child's parents tiny, but it might help those who are worried to do the actual research. If you're a teacher, you can do percentages?

@Barbie222

I am not sure that anyone other than the particularly wishful thinkers and cherry pickers really believed that children somehow magically wouldn't spread the virus around to adults and each other. It's a respiratory virus, spread by droplets. Surely by now we all know a Government climb down when we see one?

THIS. You don't solve things with magical thinking and denial of reality. You solve them by facing the facts.

I am really not sure how people expect to find concrete evidence that children pass it on the same rate as adults: is it ever possible to definitively prove where someone contracted a virus and who from?

Whilst schools have limited numbers there will obviously be limited evidence that transmission by children happens. I suppose this leicester outbreak is starting to provide some of this evid ence.

I really don't get why posters minimise the risks of schools opening to all staff that work there by saying it's not dangerous to kids particularly.

I am a teacher mid 40's with pre existing conditions ( asthma and overweight) and will return when asked but I genuinely get frustrated with posters not respecting that school staff deserve some of the same protections as other workers instead of being placed in ridiculously large bubbles possibly banned from using ppe , exempt from 1m plus rules and I honestly right now I feel that we are expendable and our lives don't matter. There is plenty of evidence that many older staff can suffer serious side effects and not be able to work for weeks or months.

It is quite likely in schools that children will be sent in when Ill or when they should be isolating. This happened before lockdown and will happen when schools return.

I don't know what the solution is but it is not my job to and I don't have the benefit of expert advice that the government has access to.

I feel we could tackle this virus if we can accept the reality of what it is.

For example, if my child had to wear a mask and visor at school, as some other countries did, I would not mind.

I do worry about the amount of minimising. We've wasted an awful lot of time in England because of this.

@ChavvySexPond

I read somewhere today (can't remember where now ) that a lot of the Leicester cases are associated with 5 factories. So, although children may be catching it, it may be coming from outbreaks in the factories. ^ Factories do seem to be an issue with spreading coronavirus^.

They certainly are. People spending time in close proximity to the same few dozen people several days a week, where there's shouting and talking etc is a risk.

But why have the government closed the schools again?

Perhaps the teachers are all married to factory workers?

Or the teachers moonlight in the factories at weekends?

Or maybe the children catch it from factory working parents and pass it on to peers and teachers? ( And the reverse obviously.)

Because as we know...Children can a) catch it, and b) pass it on.

And until we stop denying that reality and deal with it, it won't be safe for the children to go back to school.

Pretending otherwise just means schools closing weeks after they opened again.

They've closed everything again. Not just schools. It's like saying Primark must be the root cause because that's closed again to.

Everyone can catch it. Everyone can spread it. Yet it is only schools that people feel the need to keep shut in order to prevent mass transmission. Right now given the amount of outbreaks that have been happening in factories I'd rather they stayed shut than the schools.

But Primark wasn't singled out as being a particular vector in this case, @TrustTheGeneGenie . That's the whole point of the post. People, including you and me, were told that the risk of child-child and child-adult transmission was neglibible, hence the lack of distancing in schools return.

Now the truth can't be hidden any more and Gavin is forced to admit that the schools were a significant enough vector to close them. But many people can't work with the cognitive dissonance and are scrabbling around trying to make these events fit with their world view.

Of course schools are a significant element of spread. The weekly surveillance data says it, the current events in Leicester say it, the SAGE modelling said it too, and said how much. That means that going forward we need to build that into our opening plans and balance everyone's needs with respectful conversations, not stamping and shouting about how we must have everything back to normal NOW.

@Barbie222

But Primark wasn't singled out as being a particular vector in this case, *@TrustTheGeneGenie* . That's the whole point of the post. People, including you and me, were told that the risk of child-child and child-adult transmission was neglibible, hence the lack of distancing in schools return.

Now the truth can't be hidden any more and Gavin is forced to admit that the schools were a significant enough vector to close them. But many people can't work with the cognitive dissonance and are scrabbling around trying to make these events fit with their world view.

Of course schools are a significant element of spread. The weekly surveillance data says it, the current events in Leicester say it, the SAGE modelling said it too, and said how much. That means that going forward we need to build that into our opening plans and balance everyone's needs with respectful conversations, not stamping and shouting about how we must have everything back to normal NOW.

We were told that and we haven't actually been told any different since have we. What Matt Hancock said was so vague. Gavin won't admit anything because that's not why schools were shut.

Go on then... How do we build it into our opening plans without sacrificing childrens education and socialisation?

Closing everything is necessary because track and trace has been abandoned for contact and trace which a lot of people don't co operate with especially as it is a private company with the person presiding over it having had data breaches before.

They have limited idea about who has the virus and where it is being transmitted so have to rely on this brute force method to stop the transmission chain. We've had 3 months of lockdown to develop these "world beating" system and it feels wasted.

Yet it is only schools that people feel the need to keep shut in order to prevent mass transmission

No, schools are open at the absolute maximum that they can to prevent "mass transmission" and even that didn't work in Leicester. Maybe you perceive schools to be shut and that's annoying for you, but that's going to be the case for any restaurant, plane or business which is full before you can get in. It is only shut for the customer who can't get in at the moment.

We need a lot more information to make any sort of judgement:

1. Did the children testing positive catch it at school, home or elsewhere
2. When there have been positive cases in children attending school, has that child passed it to 0 others, 1 other, 15 others? Totally critical to understand this, but it clearly isn't 15 as we've had heard about it

The schools have closed to get people to take it seriously and nip it in the bud I'd have thought, not because the schools were causing a problem.