"Some" disruptive social distancing to be in place till the end of the year

[Frompcat]

Says Chris Witty. Nothing unexpected but I really wish they would say what they're talking about when they say shit like this. What does "some" mean? Schools? WFH? Family visits?

"tired of being treated like small children by those in authority." well there's a reason for that of course.

"vaccine or no vaccine, we simply cannot go on like this indefinitely." who told you that was the plan?"* some of you have the attention span of a goldfish.

Actually indefinitely means ‘for an unlimited or unspecified amount of time’. Which is exactly the position we find ourselves in at the moment. But you carry on with the personal insults.

That’s @LastTrainEast

"Suppose we ALL did what you are intending to do? All 66 million of us?" This!

@LastTrainEast I believe those in high risk categories should stay shielded if they want to, and be given every resource available to help them to do so.

The rest of the population can maintain social distancing / good hygiene and try to get back to some semblance of normality.

I believe the current decisions are being fuelled largely by popular public opinion and when the tide turns on that opinion, so will the rules.

I also believe that tide is beginning to turn now.

We're not seeing the war zone type scenes in our hospitals like Italy. We have empty nightingales and nurses making dance videos on tiktok. I'm aware people can say "well, it's because we took action" but I don't agree with the cost of that action. It seems to me there is a balance and this severe action has caused empty hospitals, and nurses with fuck all to do because we cancelled everything. All while people of all ages are making sacrifices to their livelihoods, their health, and huge parts of their lives.

With any lessening of lockdown there will be increased need for those beds, by which time they may be adequately stocked and staffed.

@newwnamme thank you. I've decided to wait and see and wait until the inevitable breaking of rules starts - then I'll join in! I can't bear the thought of not seeing him for a year. He's been stuck in a one room flat for weeks, just going out for walks and shopping so I'm nit worried about risk of infection to or from him, so the elderly people in my house will be ok.

We're due to get married but can't plan.

My business is struggling, I'm working on ops planning in the NHS and have many staff seconded to the NHS. My main business is on hold until things get back to normal.

I'm fed up. I'm tired. I'm working 16 hour days juggling everything.

I just want to have a hug from the man I love.

If we let this virus get back up to speed, life will be very far from normal.

We're not seeing the war zone type scenes in our hospitals like Italy. We have empty nightingales and nurses making dance videos on tiktok.

But what's happening here is not necessarily any different to what happened in Italy. There was a Sky news report a while ago from a hospital in Bergamo. When Italy was at the same numbers as we are now. The reporter filmed in the ICU department and it was really busy but he also showed the huge entrance lobby of the hospital and noted that it was really quiet and that the rest of the hospital was too

Just because cameras are not in busy areas or in parts of the country that are hotspots in the UK , it doesn't mean they are not just as busy as Italy was

I'm aware people can say "well, it's because we took action" but I don't agree with the cost of that action. It seems to me there is a balance and this severe action has caused empty hospitals, and nurses with fuck all to do because we cancelled everything. All while people of all ages are making sacrifices to their livelihoods, their health, and huge parts of their lives.

The government have already said now that they are bringing back routine treatments and that people should still go to hospital for this and other enquiries not related to covid19. I expect new appointments will be being sent out as we write

There is an attitude of impatience in many peoples posts now, not least from the OP, but this is unreasonable because it's still an ongoing situation and it changes daily, if not hourly, as new information is processed. We are still in the storm. We are all, across the world, still stumbling around in the dark, including the scientists, governments and hospitals.

Not sure why people expect instant answers at the click of their fingers. Is it because we are used to living in an age of instant gratification and solutions. We click a button on the internet and get an immediate response. We see a pair of shoes or a TV we like online and its delivered to our door within hours but the virus doesn't care about any of that and it didn't come with an instruction manual

@Flaxmeadow I agree about the instant gratification. We all just need to hold our nerve and wait. The government always made out lockdown would be 12 weeks (shielding, furlough etc) and that's what we should work towards. We're only 5 weeks in and a long way off having the numbers low enough.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3889147-Westminstenders-No-pubs-till-Christmas?watched=1
New thread.

Sorry wrong thread. My phone keeps directing me to the wrong thread even though I click on the right one.

Coronavirus: what would a year of physical distancing mean for the UK?

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/what-would-year-physical-distancing-mean-for-uk?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

@SnydeValley and everyone lese that just can't stand it anymore....

Are you willing to sign a document saying that you forego any medical attention?

You are of course to take whatever risks you want, but don't expect the poor paramedics,nurses, ambulance drivers, etc be exposed because of you. Also do not waste precious resources that could go to people that did everything they could to protect everyone else.

Are you willing to sign a document saying that you forego any medical attention?

Okay I'll bite.

What about the non-essential businesses who still have their staff in every day not practicing social distancing... should the managers / owners have to sign?

The police who are covering a large area in teams of 8, instead of 4 smaller areas in teams 2, should they sign?

The nurses who are being filmed dancing, clearly having contact for unnecessary reasons, should they sign?

The people having non-essential products delivered in packaging that could be contaminated, should they sign?

The people taking exercise, should they sign?

As far as I can see all of those things increase risk to individuals... it's just that they've taken the rational decision that the benefits outweigh that risk.

That's all I'm doing. I'm making a logical decision that taking my kids to the park and giving them half an hour to actually play is of greater benefit than the minuscule risk of them dying from covid.

I'm not forcing anyone else to take those risks. You do you.

But to answer your question: if they announced on the news tomorrow that you could sign away your right to covid treatment and get all your freedoms back... of course I would sign it. It's a no brainer to me. Just like I'd sign away my right to be treated for a car collision in exchange for basic human rights like being allowed to sit on some grass.

They're not even giving basic preventative treatment. They're leaving people until they are unconscious and turning blue.

To be absolutely blunt with you -- I am a single parent. If I can't receive treatment until I am turning blue and unconscious then who the fuck is calling my ambulance for me in the middle of the night I'm already dead! Might as well sign the document throwing away my right to their half-arsed treatment that I'm probably not going to receive anyway.

This sounds harsh but one of the things I've realised about this virus is what wimps some people are.

I'm not talking about people with genuine concerns - people with no or low income, people with health issues putting them at risk, front line health workers, people with no networks of family and friends to support them, people with no outdoor space they can access.

I'm talking about people who are unspeakably distressed by their inability to travel / eat out / hang out in person with friends / hold playdates. People who breach social distancing guidelines because they just can't do without a hug or a meet up. People who can't accept that we will have to live differently for a period of time for the benefit of everyone.

It's okay to feel a bit sad that we can't do the things that we like to do the most. It's not ok to say that your 'right' to a holiday or to attend a concert or cuddle your grandchild or attend a funeral trumps someone else's right to live. This isn't an attack on anyone who has posted here, it's just a general reflection on what we are learning about ourselves as a society and individuals.

I love my personal freedom and there are many small pleasures that I miss, but if someone tells me that staying at home could save the lives of vulnerable people, then I'll do it. Not forever but for a month or even a year, yes, as far as possible.

I hope that all of this brings communities closer together and teaches people the value of the things that matter - namely family and friends, helping others, enjoying the small pleasures. We can be resilient and creative when we need to be. Some of us just need to be a bit braver and trust that we can endure a lot more than we think we can, when push comes to shove. We really can. In fact, it will be valuable for some people to learn just how much we can endure when we need to.

This sounds harsh but one of the things I've realised about this virus is what wimps some people are.

I completely agree with this part. Perfectly young, fit, healthy people terrified to leave their house for basic necessities like food incase they die from a Coronavirus. People refusing to send healthy children to school in case they die from a Coronavirus.

I would be worried about this wimpyness but since RTAs haven't yet stopped people driving (1.35mill deaths) I believe once the mass hysteria settles down we will go back to our previously un-wimpy selves.

And I am counting down the days until more people begin to see sense.

1.35 million is a global figure for RTAs.

Be sure and get back to us when they start growing exponentially now, won't you?

Why does exponential growth matter when the deathrate on an individual level stays the same

Just because it's growing exponentially does not make my

I am sorry Snyde, I had not realised that you were considering this purely in terms of yourself. I was hinting at why the wider response is not the same for things like RTAs.

Your individual risk of death from Covid will be affected by the exponential growth to some extent though. The case fatality rate is likely to increase in a situation where there is an overwhelmed health care system. Both because there will be no medical support for those with covid, and because the health of the population will be poorer in general with no health service and insecure food supplies etc. Also, your risk of dying from other causes will be dramatically increased due to factors like those. I can't comment on the sacrifices you mention as I don't know what they are, but in some cases they may be things that would also be sacrificed to a raging pandemic. Obviously also the predicted greater effect on the economy would likely mean long term poorer health care and poverty/associated poor health for you and your family. Believe it or not the govt have not frozen the economy for kicks!

As I said though the exponential growth is more an issue for those considering the lives of more than one person, and the functioning of societies and economies. Not so much for your personal risk of dying.

You can of course complain to your heart's content that your personal risk of dying has not been put front and centre of the decision making process. It's not a way I would ever have considered a global pandemic, particularly since so much of what we are losing from lockdown would be lost to a failure to control the virus.

Again, apologies for having misunderstood your focus. I get it now.

Your individual risk of death from Covid will be affected by the exponential growth to some extent though. The case fatality rate is likely to increase in a situation where there is an overwhelmed health care system. Both because there will be no medical support for those with covid, and because the health of the population will be poorer in general with no health service and insecure food supplies etc.

But wasn't the growth only dangerously exponential if we did nothing? I'm not arguing we all do nothing. What I'm concerned (and frankly confused) about, is the one size fits all approach we've been given that completely defies all logic and fucks everyone (and the economy) with no thought to risk or indeed consequences.

As for the lack of health service for wider issues, forgive me but I must have missed the part where we have that right now? Like I've mentioned elsewhere I have daughter missing appointments at the eye hospital, and a grandma who is bleeding from her womb waiting on a hysterectomy. And I'm just one person, I'm pretty sure others are certainly feeling the lack of health service right now (although not some nurses, apparently?)

Regarding food supplies I won't pretend to be an expert but again, going by what we know is happening in countries like Sweden who have chosen not to lockdown, and given that the risks to healthy U50s are tiny (of which there are many) I'd hope we could muddle through -- just as we're all being expected to muddle through the current lockdown and losing our jobs and waiting for self-employed help etc.

Obviously also the predicted greater effect on the economy would likely mean long term poorer health care and poverty/associated poor health for you and your family. Believe it or not the govt have not frozen the economy for kicks!

Likely? Sounds like a guess to me. The economy is going to be fucked, up the arse, with a rusty fork no matter what we do. The least we can do is allow those who are in low risk groups to go back to whatever form of work they have.

I don't think they have frozen the economy for kicks, no. I think they did it because of public opinion. Because doing what they originally intended at that time would have been political suicide. And I won't lie and pretend that I wasn't shocked and pretty scared by the footage of the hospitals in Italy. I'm not seeing that here, though. I'm seeing empty hospitals and nurses dancing and everyone dying in spite of having treatment. And I think as soon as public opinion changes, the policy will follow pretty quickly. Already people are trickling back to work and things are starting to open up again. Did you see the police dispersing crowds on the bridge?

You can of course complain to your heart's content that your personal risk of dying has not been put front and centre of the decision making process. It's not a way I would ever have considered a global pandemic, particularly since so much of what we are losing from lockdown would be lost to a failure to control the virus.

Oh please. Okay maybe I gave you that one. To clarify lets include everyone else who shares that same risk -- so basically anyone Under 50 (possibly 60) without pre-existing medical conditions. Of which there are millions of us. How unreasonable of me to wonder why they haven't considered that rather large part of the population

Well I think people haven't quite got the fact we are all going to have to live with this virus for the foreseeable future. At least till and if a vaccine is developed. Unlike flu this will not be a seasonal virus. There was some sort of hope that when summer or hotter temperatures come the virus dies down. That isn't going to happen with this virus. So, we do know that it's here to stay and will contribute to daily deaths but hopefully with a vaccine controlable and at a level of death we can accept.
Trouble is the government doesn't give us the full figures. Care home and community deaths are not included and we reached the governments expected rate of death (20,000) last week easily if they were included.
If the government releases us from lockdown too early as the numbers drop ( well hospital figures that is, care home figures are soaring along with community ones be it from Covid or other conditions) then we may end up with the rate of infection going from R1 or below which it is at now due to lockdown (one person infects one or less people) to back up to what it was in March R3 ( one person infects 3 people).
I mean what is the government to do if a second wave which could potentially be worse than the first be anything other than cautious?
Also for those who want lockdown to end what level of death would you be happy with so you can have your right to take your kids to the park and have a drink in a pub? 1000 a day? 2000? Or maybe just wipe out anyone over 60? Or 50? What would you be happy with?

Snyde we are doing something to control it yes, but easing out of lockdown too early could mean it rising up again very fast. I am sorry I was snarky.

I agree the lockdown is a blunt instrument and a one size fits all approach can't go on much longer. I think we need it though to get transmission down to a level where more targeted and nuanced measures can work. How different that would be if the govt had acted differently in the earlier stages I don't know. I suspect maybe we could have had a much shorter lockdown.

Falling down a Chris Whitty rabbit hole on YouTube last night, he was saying before this virus that social measures to combat epidemics needed to be over two months to be effective. Public opinion wasn't a factor then. But I share your concern that public opinion will influence the govt too much.

I hope that your family can access medical treatments they need soon, I think I heard earlier that already some are coming back. I also have things delayed that are pressing, I do get it. I still think things would be worse on that front with no mitigation, at least at the peak.

Who knows how this will play out, or whether the approach we are taking is the best we can do for now. Too early to say, but the scientific opinion that predates this crisis is in line with needing to get the transmission down lower before easing lockdown, and the WHO and many international voices concur. So I am hoping they know what they are doing, and I am hoping that measures to enable lockdown to be lifted asap are being ramped up.

My Dgd aged 18 currently waiting to have her spleen out but cannot because of Covid crisis. She caught an unknown virus begining of 2019, she wasn't even Ill with it as there were no outward signs apart from being overly tired which we put down to exam pressure ( A levels) hormones and general teenage angst. Until one day in April she woke up black bleeding from every orafice and rushed into hospital. She had developed an auto immune blood disorder caused through her fighting the virus she had contracted and her own immune system had gone haywire and turned on itself and killed all her platelets that clot the blood, she was bleeding internally and the begining of organ failure. They saved her life but she now has this condition for life. So at anytime be it months or years it can happen again. A walking time bomb. She had a relapse in February same thing all over again and they recommended she have her spleen out. She has been isolated since begining of March. She cannot even exercise. She us alone as her mum is a single mum who is a carer looking after severely autistic young adults doing 12 hour shifts 6 days a week because if staff shortages. I have to keep constant contact with her by phone and zoom etc because I myself cannot go out either having just finished cancer treatment. This is my family. We are having to cope somehow and believe me there is nothing I would like to do more than see my DD and Dgd and throw my arms around them. I cannot. Like others I wish lockdown could end but I know the risk to Dgd and to my family is not worth it. I value their lives before anything else. And yes I want Dgd to have her operation but not while hospitals are full of Covid! So yes I understand people's frustrations only too well.

Bojo back on Monday and more traffic in roads and local B and Q opened yesterday. Government worried lockdown too long. God help us all! Over 20,000 deaths not enough then?!