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Narcissistic ex is "shielding" should he see dd

231 replies

kipperthedog · 30/03/2020 11:52

Hello all, hope everyone is keeping safe and well. My narc ex is extremely difficult and is using the current circumstances to be even more so. He's putting demands on me (and therefore dd) to protect his own health and making this time extremely stressful. His demands should go without saying such as distancing etc but he always makes out I'm a bad parent and wants it in writing that I agree to these things. Having spoken to her this morning, he says he's had a text to say he has to stay in for 12 weeks. As a chronic asthmatic I assume this means he has been told to "shield". My question to you is should dd go to his next week for 10 days as planned? He has no outside space so she will be cooped indoors apart from daily exercise - which if he adheres to the advice he won't be taking. As far as I can see he should be isolating from her.

Any advice welcome thanks Smile

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kipperthedog · 07/04/2020 11:33

Doing the application it says the reasons for an urgent order are risk of harm or risk of abduction. I can't say yes to either of those (and can he??). If I can't say yes to those it says 4-6 weeks...?

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Rollergirl11 · 07/04/2020 11:33

From what you’ve said about him on here it does seem that he is emotionally and psychologically abusive towards both you and your DD. The fact that your DD is scared to tell him how she feels because he will use it against her is very damaging. But I’m not a professional and I have no idea if now is the right time to delve in to that particular can of worms. Hopefully the poster who is a family lawyer can guide you in that respect. But certainly I would say that this issue needs to be addressed at some point!

TooTrusting · 07/04/2020 11:40

I don't know if you wouldn't succeed in not sending her at all. I just wanted you to think through the facts and your reasoning.

I think you felt much stronger about it when DD said she didn't want to go. However, she then FaceTimed him and that changed and now she says she is missing him. She is obviously confused, the poor thing.

His slippery eel act, changing his mind and gaslighting you, has in turn confused things in your own mind. And I don't blame you.

Re the risk being to him, not DD, I've thought more about this.

I think he is at greater risk of catching it, not just having more serious symptoms. This is because of the steroids. I had to take steroids recently and the GP warned me they would make me super vulnerable for a while. Someone else on here may be able to add some wisdom here - was I more vulnerable to catching it because the steroids lowered my immunity (that was my understanding)?

I think you have a good compromise in suggesting splitting the time into smaller chunks. What exactly is your reasoning here? Is it just the being cooped up? Agreeing that relies on him being sensible. Which he isn't. But if you apply for it you have to have reasons to show it's better for DD.

YY to agreeing clearly what happens if he or his DP gets it. Moving her back to you would actually be against govt guidance as you'd be moving someone exposed to the virus into a healthy household. If he won't agree what happens I'm not sure a court would order this. Would it be the end of the world (for DD not you) if she did have to remain with the DP for a quarantine period?

What some people are doing to get around this issue and ensure that contact continues, even where one household shows symptoms, is to agree to treat the 2 households as one unit for lockdown purposes.

So you have household A and B. Someone in A shows symptoms. Household A must self isolate for 14 days. So does household B, because it is the same as A even though nobody there is showing symptoms. Child continues to move between A and B throughout. I didn't suggest this yesterday because in your case you also have household C where the DF of your other DCs lives. I don't know if there is also a household D (does the other DF have a new partner, does she have DCs?). So this suggestion may not work for you if he wants to try to complicate it by bringing in these other households (and to be fair it does complicate it).

He may also not be willing to treat himself as a single unit with you if there is an argument that this exposes him to greater risk (from household C - following the model, if someone in C shows symptoms they would return to A exposing everyone there, and when DD next goes to him at B she may be contagious)). On the face of it his objection on that basis would be reasonable.

On the face of it, it is entirely reasonable for you to try to agree with him what happens to DD if he gets symptoms. But there are no guarantees that he won't later try to keep her, whatever he agrees to now. So whatever you agree should be recorded in a court order and you should get the solicitor to help draft it.

Re mentioning his prior abuse, I'm in 2 minds. Has it ever been mentioned before in previous proceedings? There is a risk that it could backfire by making you look paranoid and hostile. It just depends on which judge you get and how you come across. In this instance, is it actually relevant? I suppose it is to the extent that you are saying he isn't thinking what's in DD's best interests he is just focussed on getting his own way.

kipperthedog · 07/04/2020 11:47

@TooTrusting thank you I will take a few minutes to digest that.

Do you think applying myself for a variation would be a good idea?

I'm looking at the application and if I tick all the boxes correctly then it's not classed as urgent and says 4-6weeks (no risk of harm or abduction) is there a way around this to get it quicker? Would he have ticked those boxes?

Do I conclude from what you say it's better to go to court in this case and get it agreed there as extremely little hope of any compromise it agreement from him?

I think smaller chunks I was thinking of alleviating the cooped up bit but that would take empathy from him which he doesn't have.

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TooTrusting · 07/04/2020 11:54

You don't have grounds for an urgent hearing, in the Safeway he didn't.

So just apply and either cobble together an argument that DD is at risk because of a dispute over contact which means she isn't seeing DF at all, or don't claim it's urgent. By the time there is a hearing the immediate issue will be over.

Just because it's an immediate issue doesn't make it urgent.

So what happens then? You can still reach agreement (he may just have to lump it and agree to what you are offering) and record that in a consent order.

None of us have mentioned mediation.

A non urgent hearing requires you to attempt mediation BEFORE you are allowed to issue an application.

An urgent matter is a reason to bypass mediation. But the court is wise to parents trying to avoid mediation by claiming urgency. The case I was talking about earlier, the judge made an order that by the time of the March hearing the DF HAD TO have remedied this attending mediation.

DV is also a reason to bypass mediation. But a mediator would have to sign off on that.

There will be mediators offering telephone meetings (MIAMs) so I think you'd better call one (unless you try to fudge the urgency). The mediator may be unwilling to sign off on the basis of DV and persuade you that mediation should be attempted. (S)he will then try to engage your ex. If he refuses to engage, then they will sign off on the application being made because mediation was impossible.

If you decide to issue, can you drive to the court and put it through the letterbox? This will be quicker than posting and unwed to get yours in first I think.

kipperthedog · 07/04/2020 11:54

Or is it best to let him do it and wait and see what happens?

I have asked advice if solicitor who had so far done for free but any further info I have to open a file for and of course pay for it which I won't find easy. Is it not advisable to go it alone?

Already finding the application form hard work!

Just want to do what's best for dd.

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TooTrusting · 07/04/2020 11:55
  • in the same way he didn't. Bloody autocorrect
kipperthedog · 07/04/2020 11:56

I can do the application online here @TooTrusting

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kipperthedog · 07/04/2020 11:57

Yes I wondered about mediating I know he wouldn't agree to it but that wouldn't put him in a good light would it..

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TooTrusting · 07/04/2020 11:57

If you are going to apply you need first of all to put it to him to try to get him to agree.

No way of getting round the x weeks unless you can say it's urgent from a welfare/safeguarding perspective.

kipperthedog · 07/04/2020 11:57

I think you have a valid point about the steroids too.

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kipperthedog · 07/04/2020 11:58

Get him to agree to no contact until restrictions lifted?

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kipperthedog · 07/04/2020 11:59

Would you say it is urgent from a safeguarding perspective?

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kipperthedog · 07/04/2020 11:59

Sorry for all the questions!! Confused

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TooTrusting · 07/04/2020 12:02

You should be putting all of this to him today. Asking him why he had said and implied he was a 12 weeker, and for confirmation that he is not. And pointing out that this whole dispute over DD moving between your households emanated from that some issue.

Then say that as he is not, then DD should come to him but you believe she will find it difficult being cooped up and so you think it's better for her to split the 10 days into .....(whatever you propose). And a proposal for how you deal with matters if symptoms are shown in EITHER household when DD is there.

TooTrusting · 07/04/2020 12:02

I can't give detailed advice, only generic.

TooTrusting · 07/04/2020 12:04

No I don't think it's urgent. But you could try to claim it is and cross your fingers. Worst that could happen is court sets a non urgent hearing and tells you to attempt to mediate in the interim.

kipperthedog · 07/04/2020 12:05

Sure sorry!

Am I getting this right..

I should first put this in writing to him and suggest alternative plans

If he agrees great
If not then apply to court?

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kipperthedog · 07/04/2020 12:07

That wouldn't take into account his increased risk or how she would feel if he got it and died after she been there..?

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kipperthedog · 07/04/2020 12:33

What's the worst that could happen here for me? It goes to court and court say she has to go? Would I be in contempt of breach of the order or any worse trouble if the court felt I wasn't justified?

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jamaisjedors · 07/04/2020 13:11

Just read the whole thread.

While I totally sympathise about your situation, I have no idea why you are suggesting shorter contact sessions.

That goes back to you being "concerned about her mental health" or "not wanted your DD to be looked after by his partner if exH gets ill".

If you are concerned about his health and not able/willing to put in place his demands then you have said no;

Going for shorter stretches totally invalidates your argument that you are doing it for health reasons - more back and forth between the households rather than less, so more risk.

jamaisjedors · 07/04/2020 13:17

Your only arguments (if this every went to court) would be :

  1. He is vulnerable
  2. your household is not and cannot guarantee that DD has been in total isolation prior to a visit to him
Therefore she did not go.

Any other stuff about recording phone calls, how she'd feel if he died, what he said to her (this is private) should be put aside and just muddies the waters.

And I think the whole "narcissist" thing should be dropped too.

My lawyer told me this term is bandied about in court but means nothing without an official psychiatric assessment.

I get that you are frustrated. My exH is a nightmare too.

But you need to stay calm and stick to the facts.

Also get a record of all the facetime calls or at least your offer to facilitate them.

My exh tried to claim I was keeping the DC from him.

The judge told him to stop that nonsense as there was evidence in emails and texts that he saw them every week.

I would write a sympathetic email reiterating the terms of (no) contact, and suggest a specific time and frequency for facetime.

Then if your ex doesn't take you up on it, you can't be accused of obstructing.

And for your own mental health I suggest (gently) that you stop listening in on the facetimes.

TooTrusting · 07/04/2020 14:14

What's the worst that could happen here for me? It goes to court and court say she has to go? Would I be in contempt of breach of the order or any worse trouble if the court felt I wasn't justified?*
*
Worst case is you lose and she goes. I very much doubt there'd be any issues over contempt because your initial refusal was based on HIS protestations that he was high risk.

TooTrusting · 07/04/2020 14:25

Re next steps.

Yes, make a proposal. First, explain that your stance to date was because of his insistence he was vulnerable and the disclosure that he was isolating for 12 weeks, and the demands that you all self distance in your home.

However, now that he has stated categorically he is not at high risk then-

  1. DD can go to him as per the order. (Or if you want to propose something else because of the cooped up issue, propose that).
  2. You will not be following any special distancing measures I your home when DD is there.
  3. You need to agree what happens if symptoms are shown in either of your households (by DD or anyone else) (and work out what those would be).

Explain that if he is now underplaying his vulnerability, you urge him to think of his health and take a long term view. If he is genuinely at risk then isn't it better for DD to stay away. He is her father forever and a brief interruption to contact (in relative terms) which will preserve his health is more important than the here and now and putting himself at risk (and the risk that if he were to die DD would feel responsible).

TooTrusting · 07/04/2020 14:25

Then issue an application if you can't agree.

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