Narcissistic ex is "shielding" should he see dd

[kipperthedog]

Hello all, hope everyone is keeping safe and well. My narc ex is extremely difficult and is using the current circumstances to be even more so. He's putting demands on me (and therefore dd) to protect his own health and making this time extremely stressful. His demands should go without saying such as distancing etc but he always makes out I'm a bad parent and wants it in writing that I agree to these things. Having spoken to her this morning, he says he's had a text to say he has to stay in for 12 weeks. As a chronic asthmatic I assume this means he has been told to "shield". My question to you is should dd go to his next week for 10 days as planned? He has no outside space so she will be cooped indoors apart from daily exercise - which if he adheres to the advice he won't be taking. As far as I can see he should be isolating from her.

Any advice welcome thanks

It's not good to be making little digs like that:(
can you record the calls?
At the very least if it gives you an insight into the way her operates with her

You must send him a message (text or email) to say that you are aware that twice in a row he has involved her inappropriately by saying things like " I am working hard to get you home". That if he does that again you will end the call. That it is upsetting DD, confusing her and making her anxious. The language he is using is making her fearful that he intends to retain her away from you ("fighting to get you home").

And propose that you agree a regular time to FaceTime. The court may expect you to do it daily.

Get your ducks in order now in case you have a quick hearing.

Print out all his messages in date order which clearly indicate that he was a 12 week isolator/vulnerable (even if not told to isolate for 12 weeks he is vulnerable). Write the date at the top of each and highlight the relevant part and put a page number on each page. . If you get served with an application, send these to him and email to the court so you can refer to them.

Your reason for keeping DD away is not because of any risk to her, it is the increased risk to him. So that's what you will need to show.

During the telephone hearing you can also refer to the relevant parts of the docs I sent you earlier, how the exceptions mean children CAN go between homes, not MUST. The judge will be familiar with them.

Sorry, I realise my WiFi is playing up so it hadn't downloaded the last few days of posts.

Courts don't really like recordings and won't want to listen to them. Do it, but also make notes of the relevant parts where he says inappropriate things and you can then read those out to the judge.

Spartacus is quoting from the document I sent you the link to this morning.

I agree with TooTrusting, don't record their calls as court will view that negatively regardless of what he says to her.

Anyway, he scared DD, made unreasonable demands on her, trying to limit her touching anything or playing with her half siblings in her RP home, made her highly worried that she could kill her dad if she didn't comply, and she felt too anxious to go. She didn't want to be responsible for killing her dad off.m because of what he says to you and her, End of. You don't need to engage in endless debating with him, he's simply confusing you by changing his story. You took steps you needed following advice from solicitor. That he changed the parameters is irrelevant, he made DD highly anxious.

I wouldn't worry about court, keep your evidence in order but the reality is courts will be overrun with backlog of genuine cases of child protection risk. I doubt courts will have time nor patience to process all the private cases of separated parents arguing about what they did during an unprecedented lockdown period, if alternative safe contact methods were offered and done.

I'd anticipate they'll take a broad brush stroke approach of 'did RP arrange alternative Video contact?' which you have been doing and 'what would a reasonable parent do?'

@Sparticuscaticus @TooTrusting thank you both.

As far as I'm aware he didn't tell dd the demands he made on me. He didn't say she couldn't interact with her siblings but that I had to confirm that they were social distancing when with me and at their dads. I don't think she's anxious that she might kill him. She's washing her hands A LOT so I think he's made her w bit paranoid like that but I can't honestly say she's feeling anxious.

I will get the printing done tomorrow, hoping my printer has some ink!

Just been comforting dd who is v upset because she misses him and wants to see him

Kipper

Let's follow this through (family lawyer here and Spartacus also seems to be one).

Why don't you want her to go?

It started because he said he was a 12 week vulnerable isolater. He made all sorts of demands emanating from that about how DD (and your other DCs) and you need to live your lives in your home - eg the door handles and self distancing from all other family members, all with the sole purpose of minimising the risk to him.

This lead you to say she shouldn't go. Because it's unreasonable to expect her to distance from everyone in your home and with him she'd be cooped up and not allowed out at his home. And because of the increased risk to him and the pressure this would put on DD.

All good reasons to exercise your PR under that family court guidance, despite what the contact/residence order says, and to keep her with you.

He then backtracked. Denied being one of the 12 weekers. Told DD that they'd be going out for walks.

Even if he is a 12 weeker, you'd have to prove he was (on the balance of probabilities which you may, or may not, do). And even then he could say he's not going to do it (and nobody can make him - the risk is to him, not others). But of course that does put a terrible responsibility on DD's shoulders (although you say she is currently not particular aware of that).

So here we are now. Since he now says he isn't a 12 weeker and is not isolating, where does that leave you? What other reasons are there not to let her go? The lack of a garden is not a good one. You've said he hasn't made her anxious, so that's not a reason either. She's 9 so saying she doesn't want to go isn't enough. He can't expect to make you follow rules for a 12-weeker if he isn't abiding by them himself.

There is certainly a risk to him. DD comes from a mixed household where other DCs are moving between households. He has just been on steroids and your understanding has always been that his asthma is chronic (what evidence do you have for that? Eg past hospital treatment. But I'm not sure a risk to HIM is a reason to keep DD. The legal test is what is in HER best interests. Not his.

You do need clarity in relation to how you are conducting life in your home now that he has backtracked on his vulnerability, because the last thing you want if you let DD go is for him to keep her on the basis you've refused to follow steps to minimise the risk to him as a vulnerable person (he may yet revert to claiming he is, when that suits him - these guys can argue the sky is green and day is night one day and then the opposite the next day).

So I think now that he's denying it you need to rethink where you are going with this.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but things have developed since you first posted and decided DD should not go, and you need to look at this again from all the angles.

I will post separately about procedure and timing.

(I should say as a caveat that I have no experience or knowledge when it comes to family courts, I apologize if I have contradicted those who do know what they're talking about in this area)

his backtracking flip-flopping shapeshifting does make for hard work...slippery as an eel 🤨

Procedure

He has to issue an application. If he wants an urgent hearing he has to fill in an additional form specifying that there is some risk to DD if he has to wait.

An argument over Covid is not urgent. It presents no risk of harm to DD.

Once a request goes in for an urgent hearing the judge or legal advisor to the magistrates looks at it to see if it merits an urgent hearing.

I can't see that this will be treated urgently.

Under he normal procedure, you will have a hearing in several weeks' time (roughly 12 weeks).

The first hearing is called a FHDRA (first hearing dispute resolution appointment).

Before the FHDRA a CAFCASS officer will telephone both of you to ask about any immediate safeguarding issues (this is where you'll explain re his heightened vulnerability, pressure on DD, demands re your household etc). They will then do a brief safeguarding report.

Normally at the FHDRA CAFCASS will be present and will speak to you both together in private to see if the dispute can be resolved.

Of course, normally these are face to face hearings. But now all hearings are by telephone.

In my local court this means CAFCASS is not attending FHDRAs, so there is no attempt to explore agreement and the court will just make an order setting out a timetable up to the next hearing (eg medical evidence, statements).

It may be different in your local court but I suspect not. You might however phone to ask if CAFCASS are attending telephone FHDRAs

This is the procedure you would normally expect. I must say, however, that these are odd times. I had a case very recently where the DF had issued an application back in February, then he conceded he'd been over hasty and agreed to withdraw, but in the basis that both parents were giving undertakings. The court set a date for the undertakings to be given at the end of March.
A Covid-related contact issue arose in the meantime, which which we resolved. But that prompted DM to instruct me to issue an application to vary the contact regime in general (about which she and DCs had been unhappy for some time and she and I had been discussing it in an I hung basis). So 2 days before the hearing I issued an application. I was a bit shocked when it got listed for 2 days later, along with the undertaking hearing. I wasn't expecting it to be dealt with for weeks. In the event, the judge wondered why that had been done and listed it for a normal FHDRA in x weeks' time.

I can't see how your ex's application would be dealt with in 48 hours. But perhaps because telephone hearings are so much shorter than normal ones they are trying to squeeze things in quickly. I doubt it.

@TooTrusting Thank you so much for taking the time to write this all down for me, I really appreciate it. Given your advice which I feel is steering me towards court not going in my favour and the fact that dd was so upset last night, I'm feeling that perhaps I should try and work this out. I already drafted a letter to ex asking why he said things and then denied them and seeing if he can answer my questions and subsequently make a way forward, suggesting a varying of the order so dd goes 5 days this week then an extra day for the following 5 weeks to make up the 5 missed days of the easter hols and in this, alleviating her being cooped up there too long at any one time. Would this be a reasonable thing to do in the eyes of the law?

Would it be better for me to get a solicitor on board to make these agreements?

Can I ask, if dd was there and he got ill, he would be highly likely to require hospitalisation. Under the guidelines of course anyone with symptoms or in a house with someone who has symptoms should stay put but if he went to hospital this wouldn't in my eyes be the right thing to do that she stayed with his partner. How would the legal system see a resolution to that? I want to suggest an appropriate course of action that we agree to in advance.

This is so hard, I just want to do the right thing. Am also worried about him telling dd what bad mum I am etc etc. Also very worried he will find a reason not to send her back.

I can't emphasise enough what a manipulative snake he is.

I have no idea why you feel based on advice that court won't go in to it favour? You seem intent at engaging with this man who has caused your DD to get in a state of distress. Has insisted he was shielding and instructing you what you need to be doing with his DD and you sought advice and when it didn't go in his favour he has changed it. Please leave jt, stop trying to send letters asking a bc. Stop engaging- what is done is done

Sorry typos ' why court would not go in your favour'

Just say then that now it is clear he isn’t a 12 week you are following the guidelines and are stopping the extra bits can he confirm that as he isn’t that is ok and if so you would like to talk about contact

He can’t have it both ways. If your DD is missing him then I can’t see the harm in that

Are you able to contact your solicitor again? Update them on him now claiming that he isn't vulnerable despite having done previously and ask their advice as well as taking the advice on this thread. As horrible as it is that your DD is missing him, he's put a terrible burden on her regardless of which element of it is the truth. If contact does resume he needs to be told that he cannot set the rules within your household and that you are following government guidelines. Unfortunately DD being cooped up at his is a slight red herring though I can understand why it's not ideal. But something does need to be sorted regarding if he does get ill enough to require hospitalisation either way.

@champagneandfromage50

The OP has made it clear that it wasn't her ex that made their DD upset, he hasn't spoken to her about what he expected mum to do in her home. All he did was tell her he had a text about staying in for 12 weeks.
DD is now upset because she can't go to her father, because her mother is preventing it.

I've just spoken to a solicitor who had advised to submit an application to vary the order based on my concerns.

I think that’s good advice @kipperthedog

Surely this is his decision?

He is the one shielding?

The government makes a clear exception for children under 18 to pass between two homes. If he wants to take that risk he can both in terms of the government guidance and morally it’s HIS risk to take.

So will DD be going to her Dad’s? I suppose if you don’t have an adequate reason to stop her going then you should let her. I just worry that, given how manipulative your exe seems to be, that he will find some way to punish you for not sending her, like not allowing her to come back to you.

Absolutely @rollergirl and I'm also not getting any assurances from him about my worries what would happen if he gets it when she's there etc.

Solicitor thinks if I apply for variation then I am being pro active and the court will look favourably on that?

It's either that or I let her go

The application asks about abuse, emotional or psychological, coercive behaviour. I'm tempted to put yes as that's what I feel he does but have no proof?

@TooTrusting can you advise me on this at all please?

From the OP updates she has stated her DD doesn't want to go and is scared of her dad and feels pressurised -- perhaps I have the wrong end of the stick but I didn't think DD was upset at not seeing her dad it was note that he makes her feel guilty and she is getting emotional - not dissimilar to what he does to her mum

@champagneandfromage50 dd is upset at the moment that she isn't able to go and misses him. She's never been good with FaceTime and never usually wants to speak to either of us when she's away as she know she gets upset and would rather just get on with her time where she is.

Generally dd isn't keen to go and feels like she doesn't want to be honest with him about things as he makes her feel bad.