Narcissistic ex is "shielding" should he see dd

[kipperthedog]

Hello all, hope everyone is keeping safe and well. My narc ex is extremely difficult and is using the current circumstances to be even more so. He's putting demands on me (and therefore dd) to protect his own health and making this time extremely stressful. His demands should go without saying such as distancing etc but he always makes out I'm a bad parent and wants it in writing that I agree to these things. Having spoken to her this morning, he says he's had a text to say he has to stay in for 12 weeks. As a chronic asthmatic I assume this means he has been told to "shield". My question to you is should dd go to his next week for 10 days as planned? He has no outside space so she will be cooped indoors apart from daily exercise - which if he adheres to the advice he won't be taking. As far as I can see he should be isolating from her.

Any advice welcome thanks

Absolutely not. If he doesn't like it he can take you back to court. He is using this to control you and your life. Please don't let him. I know how you feel as I have similar issues with ex.

'Your poor thing! It must be so worrying for you to be at such risk that the government has instructed you to stay inside, pack a hospital bag and consider whether you wish to be resuscitated. Don't worry, we won't be putting you at risk from infection as you're so vulnerable; it's tough, but we have to do what is right and put you and your safety first.'

see you in three months

Phone call to shout at you 'Oh, hello (cough, cough). How are things? (cough). Oh yes, we've been very careful, but they do say that it's already well out of control. (cough). No, just a bit of a cold/hayfever at the moment. Did you want her to bring over some supplies? (cough).'

If he's actually vulnerable having her over could kill him.

She cant go stay with him.

He can write what demands he likes, he isn't going to be there to police them and no court is going to support him trying to police what happens in your home during your contact time. Nod and smile where you can but things like social distancing between kids living in the same home is obviously ridiculous and unrealistic. If he has concerns about dd coming to him having mixed with siblings then he makes the call on whether he takes that risk or doesn't. You'll support his decision either way.

He can shield. He can not shield. His call. The only thing he needs to talk to you about is if contact is changing.

He can demand all he wants, but what goes on in your house is up to you. If he doesn't like it then tell him to take you to court to put those measures in place (he'd be laughed out the place before he arrived), or an alternative is that he doesn't get to see his dc.

Tbh I'd just not bother emailing or contacting him back. Just ignore him unless he's asking a specific, sensible question about the dc.

this man is in a very weak position, do not allow him to bully you, c'mon you know that if you so much as cough in his direction he will run away crying.
I would absolutely be playing on his fears.... he wants to play mind games?
Have at it, he had it coming:)

Evening all, thank you so much for your replies, have just caught up!

You've definitely made me see things a little differently, I guess I always default to feeling under threat by him but perhaps I just need to stand up to him a bit more (always the case really )

@StrawberryJam200 dd is 9. She does love her Dad (not old enough to realise what a b***d he is yet and I will let her figure that out in her own time) but isn't keen to go to his at the best of times so think she'd be totally fine not going as long as she could FaceTime occasionally.

@MitziK that made me laugh

@UYScuti you may have a point there. I'm crap at mind games though!!

Would like to get a legal standpoint but sol friend hasn't emailed me back yet. Need to take some sort of action tomorrow somehow. He's going to kick right off if I say she's not going.

What are peoples opinions of her going to spend 10 days in a house with no outside space anyway - even if he doesn't "shield"?

xx

You can,t use the no outside space thing as a reason if not shielding as tehn he can go out. So on it,s own No this wouldn,t be a reason in my opinion.

The no outdoor space has no bearing. I have no outdoor space along with many other parents who live in flats. I don’t see anyone saying I shouldn’t have my child living with me because of that. The shielding is a different matter and I believe that you should keep to custody arrangements unless there are issues around houses isolating or shielding, so on that basis i wouldn’t want her to go. With shielding - is the person not supposed to try and isolate from others in the household as much as possible?

If he falls into the shielding group it’s his choice whether to adopt the measures or not.

If he is shielding your DD shouldn’t go, if he chooses not to then your DD should practises strict social distancing, not shielding herself.

He doesn’t get to dictate who touches doorknobs dickhead

I wouldn’t get caught up on the legalities, you are giving him too much headspace.

Sorry I should have said if he’s shielding he needs to assure you that DD will be looked after, given that he is supposed to stay 2m away not eat together etc.

OK yes I see your points about the outside space. I suppose I was thinking that as we are currently spending 60-70% of our time in the garden, maybe 10 days was a bit long for her to be cooped up unnecessarily.

In addition to saying he got the text to say he can't go out for 12 weeks he also said to her that he was going for a long walk today and that they will be going on walks next week.

He has a male partner that lives with him so I assume if he wasn't going out then his partner could take her.

FairyBatman I am giving him way too much headspace, it's stopping me sleeping and constantly on my mind. I just - as always - wish he was a normal and reasonable human instead of being an absolute arsehole.

Anyway, I guess the summary of all this is that I need to ask him if he is shielding and go from there...

He didn't sound at all well either, he told me last week he had a chest infection and had had steroids. Was spluttering when he spoke to her.

I'd be very concerned about him if he's already unwell. She doesn't need the worry if he needs to be hospitalised as an emergency and you don't want the virus brought back. Or the guilt/blame if he does end up on a ventilator.

I'd really put it in terms of his welfare and that he is also a infection risk to her with his current illness/weakness - that he is too important a person to her for you to take any unnecessary risks with his health. He'll hate that

I don't think any Family Court judge would order a child into a confined space for ten days with somebody who has a continuous cough right now. Especially as Mum is obviously doing it out of a wish to Do the Right Thing and protect the bastard father of her child.

Thanks @MitziK. I agree with you. I've been thinking how awful it would be if she went and he got ill, she would have it on her conscience forever wouldn't she.

I've had some emails to and fro this morning, he wouldn't give me a straight answer if he has been advised to shield but then wouldn't send me a copy of the text either. He says he is fine and well and wants to have her.

He says "*she has duel residency between our homes and is regarded as living here as well as with you. People (including children) living with someone regarded as "extremely vulnerable" are not expected to shield and should continue living with other members of their household whist practising standard social distancing measures. There is advice to follow how me (plus partner) and dd manage living together during this time but does not impact the times dd is with you.

Although again I appreciate your concern for my own health we are not responsible for nor should we be making decisions about each others health and well being choices*"

So basically admitting that he is shielding.

I see that if he is well and wants to have her then maybe it's not my choice to make but I it fair to put her in that situation for 10 days when the advice is that he is 2 meters away from her etc. Should I ask what measures he is going to put in place or just say she can't go.

Worried about doing the right thing and not wanting to get in trouble with the court later.

I wouldn't say he had a persistent cough but sounded snuffly.

He is right, much as it's annoying - it is his life he's prepared to risk in order to see her.

It's a relatively calm email and if he wasn't such a dick normally, the anxiety about what goes on that he can't control would be reasonable; in view of his message, I'd try and remain pleasant pretend to give a shit about him and allow her to go, stating that you have been following the guidance to try and protect him even if you haven't.

If the worst happens, it's not her fault and isn't yours. He's choosing to take the risk in order to see her and if he does get ill/worsens, he's made it clear that it's his decision and his alone.

He wants to have her, he's told you basically thanks for your concern about my health but back off; that's the end of it.

He's a grown up. He's not shielding, he's doing the bits of it he wants to, if he wants to take the risk and see dd then that's his choice. Dd will not be responsible if he becomes ill; he's taking an informed chance. I'm afraid access to a garden and how he has her distance while she's in his house would be seen as entirely up to him as her parent while she's in his care; court wouldn't see those as reasonable grounds to withhold contact and they aren't. Plenty of kids are living in these situations right now with a vulnerable person in their family.

However he equally does not get to control what dd does or what happens in your home while she's in your care, and he needs to understand that totally unreasonable expectations like distancing from siblings and not touching door handles won't be possible, and it would be highly stressful and disruptive to her even if it was possible in a house of three kids. If he wants to have dd stay then he needs to accept that risk.

His call.

we are not responsible for nor should we be making decisions about each others health and well being choices
he's on VERY thin ice with that justification, we are being ordered by our govt to act in ways which protect the health of others.

Not giving a straight answer is to do with a desire to spin everything in his favour!
What's his game here, is he going to find some reason to not give her back to you?

@UYScuti yes absolutely he wants it all in his favour. Yes quite probably he will find some excuse, that is a real fear. He will pump her for information as to what she's been doing here with me and then warp it and use it as a reason she can't come back.

My head is spinning with it all. My Mum thinks I shouldn't let her go on the basis why put her in the position of going there with severe restrictions when she doesn't have to. She thinks I should take action to stop it happening and that I'll regret not standing up to him and therefore saving dd the unpleasant circs if I don't.

All he's ever wanted is possession of her. For narcs it's not about the child or their well being it's about gaining control and using the child as a pawn. If he truly put her first he wouldn't put her in that situation would he?

The gist of thought here though seems to be that she should go. I'm so confused

I skirted over the situation with dd earlier just saying Daddy has more restrictions because of his health - nothing more - and she immediately said I think you should phone him and say I can't go, I really want to stay here. Never wants to go at the best of times. Don't get me wrong, I know contact is important and I'd never stop her seeing her Dad in normal circs (and never have done) but putting her in a confined space with two adults in a small house no garden, one can't go out, when she has the option to not be in that situation seems crazy. Unprecedented times.

He is using the crisis to make a new normal, imo...dont ever try to reason or negotiate with him, keep your strategy private or he will try to circumvent it, always wear a mask with this man, you need full psychic PPE with toxic people.

she immediately said I think you should phone him and say I can't go, I really want to stay here
go with that then?
Make a simple clear justification and stick with it.
Sorry you're having to deal with this:(
I dont know enough about his general MO to give anything more than general thoughts, presume you trust your mum and she genuinely has your back? In which case her instincts are probably good ones

You just need to do it now tell him she isnt going - she doesnt want to either

@UYScuti thank you for your replies and support, it means the world to have people to talk this through with.

I learnt a long time ago not to try and reason or negotiate, I ended up doing quite a lot of research on narcs as he's been like this since we split up 7 years ago. I usually keep my contact with him short and unemotional as he feeds off anything when he thinks he's getting to me.

I like the term full psychic PPE

Yes my Mum totally has my back bless her, I think my worry is what others have said above, that it's his choice whether or not he takes the advice to shield and that the court won't see my reasons as enough to stop her going...

I could never tell him dd doesn't want to go as he would make her feel so bad. Before all this she always says she doesn't want to go and I've told her that if she really doesn't want to then I would help her to change things but she's scared of him asking her questions and making her feel bad

he has written a long list of demands so he's not shielding at all and is just trying to control your lives. A simple "we won't meet those demands, it's your choice if she still comes" takes back the control and stops you overthinking this.

It's true that if you are on the shielded list then people in your oen household don't have to shield themselves, but that is in a context of advice that the shielded person stays at a distance form others, eats in a separate room, uses separate bathroom or cleans thoroughly before use etc. The shielded person cannot go out for a walk.

I am not sure what the guidance is for shielding people who need to have their children from a different household staying with them. I think you should try and get advice on this.

I don't think the outside space thing really stands up. I agree, it would be nice for your dd to stay with you, but lots of children live in homes with no garden and/or with parents on the shielded list.

I agree about your dd feeling very anxious if her father got ill though, and worrying if it was her that passed it on. She shouldn't worry about that but I know as a child I would have found that hard to process.

Sorry you are having to deal with this situation that would be difficult enough with a reasonable non narc person!