Narcissistic ex is "shielding" should he see dd

[kipperthedog]

Hello all, hope everyone is keeping safe and well. My narc ex is extremely difficult and is using the current circumstances to be even more so. He's putting demands on me (and therefore dd) to protect his own health and making this time extremely stressful. His demands should go without saying such as distancing etc but he always makes out I'm a bad parent and wants it in writing that I agree to these things. Having spoken to her this morning, he says he's had a text to say he has to stay in for 12 weeks. As a chronic asthmatic I assume this means he has been told to "shield". My question to you is should dd go to his next week for 10 days as planned? He has no outside space so she will be cooped indoors apart from daily exercise - which if he adheres to the advice he won't be taking. As far as I can see he should be isolating from her.

Any advice welcome thanks

My Mum thinks I shouldn't let her go on the basis why put her in the position of going there with severe restrictions when she doesn't have to.

If you were the one shielding or without a garden, would you suggest that your dd stay with her father for the duration then? I mean I share the instinct but I don't think it quite stands up as an argument. To be honest if he was reasonable he would probably suggest himself that it wouldn't be much fun for her to be with him right now, but clearly he isn't thinking like that. I think a more powerful argument is about health risks, if he is unwell maybe he should be self isolating from dd anyway.

It sounds as if you are fully familiar with the nature of the beast then Kipper!
Do you think an offer of Skype instead would be well received, I guess not since it does not constitute him getting his own way but he will surely understand that if he rejects Skype that looks as if he doesn't want contact he just wants control?

thanks @Inkpaperstars

Evening all. A bit of an update from me. I did loads of research and spoke to gingerbread at length and a solicitor. I came to the conclusion that I was going to tell him she wasn't going which I did, and offered to FaceTime etc as the court guidance says is appropriate. He then said he isn't shielding and would contact court to get an enforcement order. I stayed strong and said I had made my decision etc. He then emailed back with copy of the text he was sent which says if he has been in ICU ever or hospital in last year due to asthma he was advised to avid face to face contact for 12 weeks - he says he hasn't. He says he is going for walks as normal but has chosen to implement some measures for himself. I asked him why he told dd he had to stay in for 12 weeks if it wasn't applicable and why he referred to extremely vulnerable people's guidelines that she and he would have to adhere to while she is with him. He didn't answer just got shirty for me questioning him. He has also shown no empathy with any of my concerns for her mental health when she is stuck indoors with him or any of my health concerns. Not that I am surprised by that. I really feel stuck as to know what to do next. Yesterday and before I had this email, the solicitor said my concerns were valid and wouldn't be dismissed in court but given the fact there is no precedent in these situations can't be sure how it will go but I wouldn't be any worse off than I am now. I feel like I should continue to stand up to him but I'm scared if I'm doing the right thing. Sorry for garbled message all, so fed up with all this its literally taken over my whole week.

My understanding was that chronic asthmatics fell into the vulnerable category and should be self isolating?

@Ginger1982 I'm SO confused with it all I don't know which way to turn.

This thread might help?

Being 'vulnerable' does not make you part of the 'Shielded' group - if you're confused, see below www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/3869495-Being-vulnerable-does-not-make-you-part-of-the-Shielded-group-if-youre-confused-see-below

I’d let him take it to court.

He didn't answer just got shirty for me questioning him
there you go he just makes up on the spot whatever he thinks will mean he gets his own way, now you've seen through him he's scrambling and has to resort to being defensive to try and shut you up.
I say, HOLD YOUR LINE

So one minute she’s being told she’s not allowed to stand close to her siblings or touch the door handles at home before she sees him because of the serious danger to his life, which he needs in writing, which would scare a lot of children I would think.... Now he’s suddenly absolutely fine. He certainly doesn’t care about her mental health does he sorry you’re both going through this

@OnlyJudyCanJudgeMe @UYScuti @sonypony

Thank you all so so much for your support, I really need it right now as I was wavering. He's so manipulative. I've literally spent all week agonising over this (and my poor Mum hasn't had a second to herself either!) but I've stood up to him now and @sonypony when you put it like that in black and white it's utter madness isn't it.

I've taken your advice, held my line and hit send. Will brace myself and see if he actually does take me to court now. I'm a natural rule follower and so it feels so wrong to go against the court order but needs must in this situation I think. At least it will be the court who decides and not me being manipulated into doing what he wants so it would be a fair decision. I've offered him to suggest a regular FaceTime contact schedule that he would be happy with and said I will make the missed time up as per the solicitors advice. I can't do more than that. Fingers crossed.

Thank you again

I'm a natural rule follower
he understands that, he knows (either consciously or instinctively) what your instincts/'default settings' are.
As soon as he detects any wavering from you it's like he see's a crack in the door and he gets out a verbal crowbar to prise it open.
Hold fast and dont do any JADE-ing*
Give away as little info as possible, anything you give him will be used against you, or used to make a case against you.
At the same time also keep a detailed log of it all & gather as much on him as you can.

*outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/jade-dont-justify-argue-defend-explain

Very very true @uyscuti will have a look at the link thank you

@UYScuti that website is extremely interesting thank you for sharing.

I'm wondering, if he takes this to the courts, do I mention his narcissistic behaviour? I've always just lived with it as never felt like anyone would believe me and it's hard to prove as he's so expert at having a "reasonable" facade. Or do I just stick to the facts. I wouldn't want them to think I was stopping dd going out of spite, which I'm absolutely not. But I am confused how one minute his life depends on a list of demands he's made of me and another his health issues are r a big deal...

So this morning he says he isn't shielding, hasn't been identified as high risk or vulnerable. He says the advice I have referred to from the gov etc doesn't apply to him and that the only reason other than that I've given is that his house is small when they are still going on daily walks to the woods. He asks me to outline my reasons to break the court order.

Help!!!!

He's trying to draw me in to discussion and from what he says it makes me look totally unreasonable doesn't it??

I feel so confused. Everything he asked me to do pointed to possibly putting his life in jeopardy but now he's saying all is fine??

I don't want the court to think me deliberately obstructive.

I worry that if he gets it while she's there he would need to be hospitalised and then she would come back to me and risk infecting me and my family.

I worry that he will find a reason not to bring her back.

If I try and compromise and ask to do smaller chunks of time would that help? Or invalidate my case? He probably won't agree anyway.

Arrrghhhhhh my brain is so confused.

You stick to the facts in court. The courts will have seen many abusers but there priority is the DC

I would honestly just tell him straight that she's not going and then block. What's he gonna do? Believe me I had an abusive ex who used to draw me into all-sorts of bullshit and occupy my head more than he should have. The day I decided not to engage in his bullshit was very freeing.

Ex

Due the lockdown situation, your health and the impact on dd of the restrictions you outlined to her I have decided she will not be visiting at this time. When this crisis has lifted I will arrange for dd to visit you and make up the time. Dd would like to face time you on
I will not be entering in to any discussion on this as it is not helpful to dd or to me.

And then whatever he sends you just cut and paste and send this again and again and again.

Keep all the evidence you have of what he said before.

Those thinking the email he sent is calm... haven’t dealt with a narcissist. I can see right through it, it’s patronising and he’s trying to belittle you by ‘sounding in control and calm’. I’m so sorry OP I am in the exact situation as you ( see my recent post ) it’s awful 😞 I too get so scared to go against ANYTHING even when I know full blood well I’m right because of the after math I’ll face ☹️ My ex has even knocked on my door for hours on end and family members doors UNTIL he gets his own way. What he’s doing to you by saying those things then back tracking is gas lighting ... he’s getting you all worked up then when he doesn’t get his way he’s taking it all back. Stay strong. Don’t engage. Just say what’s happening and ignore from now onwards

OP, be very clear with your self what the reason is why you don't want her to go.
From what I've read, it does sound like you're anxious because he has no outside space, but that isn't a valid reason. You're other reason seems to be that you thought he was shielding. Again, that's not valid because that's his call.
I think your only valid reasons would be that he has got the virus and is self isolating, in which case you keep her with you for seven days from him first having symptoms, or that your DD is ill and so needs to stay at home.

Because either 1. The restrictions in our home you outline we MUST adhere to in order for her to visit are needed. We can’t do them, it’s not reasonable so she can’t visit or 2. As you now say you are fine you lied and I’m too concerned about the emotional impact on her of you lying to her worrying her that you are at serious risk and she must take very significant precautions causing anxiety of not being near her siblings or touching door handles etc. I think a professional assessment of the impact of this on her is needed before contact resumes. As if things aren’t hard enough for everyone in this situation some people just have to make it even harder for their own selfish benefit don’t they

Those would be my reasons but if it’s the lack of outdoor space you’re worried about that’s not a reason at all and I would let her go. It’s really not that long and she can go for a walk. A lot of children live in flats permanently at the moment so I’m sure (was it 10 days?) will be fine.

Hi kipper 😊
I don't think I would use the term narcissistic in court but you can still describe the behaviours, I would focus on being polite and reasonable (because he will want to use anything he can to make a case against you so that he can make you look bad in court) but still stick to your decision and don't get drawn down the pathway of justifying it further than you already have.

What about the fact that DD actually doesn’t want to go this time? If you explained to X that given the current circumstances that are beyond anyone’s control, DD is stressed about visiting him and all the possible consequences of her visiting him, and that at this particular time it’s her wish and her decision not to? Surely if he continues to argue and ignore that then it shows that HE is the one being unreasonable and putting his own wants before hers?

Once you start playing him at his own game he is in a difficult position, you know his game you know all the rules because you've been absorbing it all over time, you just have to consciously recognise what's going on, join all the dots and then realise that there are strategies that you can use to counter his strategies.
He's only able to manipulate you if you fall into the role of victim where you are largely unable to effectively counter his strategies, once you become an opponent he's on the back foot because he never anticipated that you would be able to act strategically.
Do all with a smile on your face, make sure that you can never be accused of being the bad guy

Stress that you are not trying to be difficult, that you are simply listening to your daughter, and that perhaps he should too.