Is the green party starting to regret it's association with Islamists?

[mids2019]

The green party, ostensibly about climate protection and general progressive values seems to have gotten into bed with Islamist sympathisers and the amount of anti semitism and basic hatred of their own country is now obvious.

The green party now at least locally are known as a party that has sympathies towards all manner of Islamist causes including Hamas's objective to wipe Israel of the face of the Earth.

Wouldn't be surprised if they produce a motion declaring climate change a Jewish conspiracy........

You mean like the 'A Land for All' movement. I think it is a brilliant idea and I believe it is the best solution.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cmvg632xgndeo

The youth of Israel are moving to the right with security being their main concern. Does this suggest there is a new generation of Israelis wanting a one or even two state solution.....maybe not. The future begins with the youth and if we take into consideration Gazans possibly don't have the most positive view of Israel ever maybe this is looking more and more like two sides of a conflict seeking maximalist aims.of

Talk of one state of variant of is akin to saying Pakistan should merge with India. Maybe we have passed a Rubicon where the hatred and mistrust on both sides cannot be changed at least in the short term. I would imagine that a lack of overt conflict as currently would be the best can be hoped for for the next fwe years.

It's depressing but not surprising that the young people of Israel are moving to the right.

Yet another unintended consequence of 7/10/23.

Then there is no hope. The Gazans cannot survive living the way they do for much longer, millions living in tents while corralled into a fraction of what was already one of the most densely populated places on earth. If Israel goes even further right, hard to believe it can, settler attacks are going to increase even more leaving no hope for the Palestinians in the West Bank. It is fair to say a Rubicon has been crossed, in which Israel's global reputation is now irreparably damaged. As things get worse for the Palestinians, so will the global resentment towards Israel and Israelis in general. When the Palestinians are finally driven out of the country, I'm sure there will be great celebrations of joy in Israel but that joy will be short lived when they travel to other countries and find the reception they receive is 'hostile', to put it very mildly. What a wonderfully rosy outlook for the future of humanity.

I think you have said something there. You think the territory of Gaza is a coral in other words even if you formed a part of a Palestinian state out of Gaza it wouldn't be enough as statehood doesn't address overpopulation, lack of resource etc. What I am taking from your point is that a 2 state solution envisage s a large swathe of Israel for P Palestine and if we are being honest probably all of it from your perspective (and the Greens). I can see why Israelis might fear for security of a putative state is simply demanding its territory?

Absolutely. I think people looking at it from the outside often underestimate how much living under constant threat shapes a generation's worldview and political leanings.

Actually, as per UN resolutions, Palestine should be up to the Green line. That means all of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza. As per the pre 1967 borders. The UN only recognises sovereign Israeli territory up to these borders. All the rest is occupied territories by International law.

I think there is an overarching question about international law and it's apllicability. For instance Ukraine in international law is still an unaltered sovereign state but can you envisage a situation where Russia gives up territorial gains. I think the problem with international law apart from being politicised is that is a very fragile mutable beast.

One question is who would remove Israeli towns and settlements in post 1967 regions? Another problem is that even pre 1967 Gaza was of a similar area and you yourself suggested it is an area too small for its populace.

I think another massive question is whether both the Palestinians and Israelis commit to non armed conflict. The dislike between the two people's is such that you may still have attacks by Palestine and significant response fro m Israel. It would be technically a conflict between two states but in reality a fairly similar status quo for the region apart from the Palestinians having more representation at the UN.

But people including me have pointed out several things you are wrong about and you’ve just move the goal posts!

In a Western democracy these tiny states either impose rules on who can be there or move their economy to be based on something that doesn't require much land (banking, tourism for small islands) or both. Their birth rates tend to decrease due to higher education levels for women.
Now, I can't imagine other Palestinians really wanting to move to Gaza but if the rest of 1967 Palestine was available to them, and the Palestinian government wasn't obsessed with getting rid of Israel (and children NOT in Gaza are also taught that Israel is our enemy, Jews are evil), and women were given a chance to have better education (this is improving as in most ME states but not fast enough) then the population of Gaza would be a) better educated and b) smaller, leading to the ability to change the basis of their economy.

But the Palestinians don’t want the Green Line - they didn’t accept it at the time. The fact that they have lost every time they tried to destroy that status quo and ended up with less than before isnt Israel’s fault. You start a war knowing there’s a risk you’ll lose what you have.
That’s why eastern Prussia is in Poland now, not Germany: the Germans didn’t get to say “Ok then let’s go back to how it was before we attacked the rest of Europe”

And here are the sort of people who support Palestine in the west. NHS doctors - great people 🙄
https://x.com/dailymail/status/2112508990840004692?s=12

If anything, I've moved the goal posts closer to you to help. Still hoping for an interesting argument.

I think we have to accept that the destruction of Israel is the ideological goal of many that describe themselves as pro Palestinian. This is not an argument even about UN resolutions but simply 'river to the sea' i.e. no Israel. The greens have now explicitly stated this as a political goal and this reflects part of their membership.

Is there any real political or geographical reality to green lines drawn on a UN map at some point?

Is there any real political or geographical reality to green lines drawn on a UN map at some point?

I guess not to a country that believes International law only applies to all the other countries in the world but not to Israel. That is of course unless those laws go in Israel's favour, in which case they're all over them.

Thanks for posting this. I think the way the Palestine - Israel conflict has become positioned front and centre in our public life has really poisoned our society. The hatred that has grown up in that region is infiltrating our culture. It's making for a toxic society and a danger to British Jews.

Very sadly I do agree with this.

I just hope the tide is beginning to turn a bit now away from all this hatred.

Example being the backlash against the Green party vote. And the report on combating antisemitism in English schools being released today.

The antisemitic attacks on Jews in the UK and other EU countries kind of justifies the original Zionist theory that Jews will never be safe anywhere. Just yesterday, an individual assaulted a number of Jewish women in London by punching them in the head. So if they don't want Israel they'd better make sure our countries are safe for Jews to live in.

What is the logical conclusion if they don't want jewish people in the UK, ( or any other country including Israel)? Did somebody say genocide?

I think the tide is turning… slowly.
As the antisemitics have become increasingly confident they have revealed more of themselves and people are beginning to wake up and realise what’s happening.( I hope 🤞)

Well yes. I saw a woman (white, middle-aged, middle-class) questioned about where Jews should go. She stuttered and said… “Germany?”

Agree. It does feel like antisemitism never really goes away, but is always bubbling under the surface.

It’s become particularly obvious since October 7th. Not just because of what happened on that day, but because of the aftermath, the reactions around the world.

I mean, people were ripping down posters of hostages or drawing Hitler moustaches on them, what the hell is the excuse for that?
Or organising pro-Palestine marches in London, even before Israel responded to the attack.
Or attacking (and even killing) Jews around the world because of the actions of the Israeli government and the way they reacted to a terror attack launched on their country.

It’s really mad. Who can blame Zionists for wanting to have a homeland where people around them don’t suddenly turn on them?

I really hope so too!

That’s what I find so concerning.
People who consider themselves particularly caring and inclusive often seem to have a sympathy bypass when it comes to Jews.

I completely agree with this. Attitudes and speech that would have been unthinkable a few years ago are now acceptable. It’s horrific

And the ubiquitous, endless use of keffiyehs, marches and flags in a country so far away from the Middle East is bizarre. This has never happened with any other conflict. It’s like a social contagion .