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Conflict in the Middle East

Has the West been taken in by Hamas’ lies and anti Israeli narrative?

622 replies

OpheliaWasntMad · 25/09/2026 16:59

https://nypost.com/2026/09/21/opinion/journalist-admits-anti-israel-narrative-driving-protests-is-based-on-hamas-lies/

This journalist admits that his reporting from Gaza was not accurate because he was afraid of retaliation from Hamas.
Why have so many believed every report from Gaza journalists?

Palestinian photojournalist Motaz Azaiza

Journalist admits: Anti-Israel narrative driving protests is based on Hamas lies

Journalist Motaz Azaiza’s new revelations exposing “SMART,” a Hamas-controlled group of reporters used to manage the media narrative about Gaza, reveal uncomfortable but important truths about near…

https://nypost.com/2026/09/21/opinion/journalist-admits-anti-israel-narrative-driving-protests-is-based-on-hamas-lies/

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Twiglets1 · 04/10/2026 14:36

Islandsofsand · 04/10/2026 14:24

Thanks @Twiglets1

I don’t think most people think differently on the whole. It’s the language used that seems to cause rifts. You say harsh and potential war crimes, others may choose different words and perhaps it’s the semantics that cause the most problems?

Edited

I think MN does have some people with extreme views, and it is those people that cause the most problems in debates. I'm not one of them and it doesn't seem like you are either. I can have perfectly polite discussions IRL with friends who don't support Israel and we don't accuse each other of anything nasty for holding different opinions about the war.

The only reason I say potential war crimes btw is because I'm not sure I'm qualified to judge whether individual IDF members have committed war crimes or not. My opinion if it helps is that I think they have on occasion.

But once again we are discussing what Israel has done wrong and not Hamas lies. I know some people are sick of talking about Hamas but look at the title of the thread. It is literally about Hamas lies and anti Israeli narrative, not about what we are now discussing.

Gloriia · 04/10/2026 14:42

'However, I’ll fall off my chair if any of the pro-Israeli supporters will accept that Israel actively chose their response and had agency in causing the destruction of Gaza, the appalling collateral deaths and suffering. They had a choice and now they and their supporters need to accept that people are extremely critical of this'

Well, in WW2 I don't think German civilians deserved to be killed, ditto those killed in the blitz. However in a war civilians and destruction obviously occur. I think you're forgetting that hamas actually embedded themselves in the community hence increasing the risk of civilian deaths.

I'm not a fan of war generally but I understand that a nation has the right to defend itself and retaliate.

runfromthecrushingtide · 04/10/2026 14:44

rainingsnoring · 04/10/2026 12:22

Yes and, unfortunately, the action of Israel has increased antisemitism against Jewish people in other countries who have no connection to what is going on, many of who are appalled by the behaviour of the Israeli government.

Antisemitism is the fault of antisemites, no one else. The kind of people who complain about the Jewish lobby and spread conspiracy theories about terrorist attacks against Jews, they are the reason antisemitism is going up.

Twiglets1 · 04/10/2026 14:46

runfromthecrushingtide · 04/10/2026 14:44

Antisemitism is the fault of antisemites, no one else. The kind of people who complain about the Jewish lobby and spread conspiracy theories about terrorist attacks against Jews, they are the reason antisemitism is going up.

This.

Antisemitism is the fault of antisemites full stop.

Like racism is the fault of racists full stop.

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SingingShrews · 04/10/2026 16:01

dairydebris · 04/10/2026 13:08

So you can't think of anything positive to say?

Of course I can. Palestine is full of brave, resilient people. The Drs and nurses who kept going into work every single day despite their lives being threatened. The paramedics who went out every day risking their lives. The everyday people who ran towards bombed buildings in full knowledge that Israel love a double tap bombing and dug out survivors with their bare hands. The children who keep doing their school amongst the remains of their towns and cities with bombs going off in the background. It takes one hell of a society to produce people who keep helping others when they've lost everything, when they are starved and exhausted from years of being under attack, when there is a very real risk to their lives. I'd say that's pretty admirable.

Islandsofsand · 04/10/2026 16:30

Gloriia · 04/10/2026 14:42

'However, I’ll fall off my chair if any of the pro-Israeli supporters will accept that Israel actively chose their response and had agency in causing the destruction of Gaza, the appalling collateral deaths and suffering. They had a choice and now they and their supporters need to accept that people are extremely critical of this'

Well, in WW2 I don't think German civilians deserved to be killed, ditto those killed in the blitz. However in a war civilians and destruction obviously occur. I think you're forgetting that hamas actually embedded themselves in the community hence increasing the risk of civilian deaths.

I'm not a fan of war generally but I understand that a nation has the right to defend itself and retaliate.

It’s the degree to which they retaliated and the manner in which they did this.

This is where the disagreement lies.

For example - the Israeli documentary Naza (according to press releases as haven’t seen yet) suggests the number of collateral deaths of innocents was increased in comparison to before and also for lower ranking Hamas members. Family homes were also targeted at night knowing children would be home and killed alongside their father - as Israel could track them by their phones.

Since WW2 we have the Geneva Convention - created in response to the atrocities in that war, including the Holocaust. We have to raise the bar and not use bombing of Dresden, for example, as as a comparison.

Islandsofsand · 04/10/2026 16:36

I have used this example before- Obama sent in the navy seals to kill Osama bin Laden and limit collateral civilian deaths. He didn’t choose to drop a bomb on his compound.

Gloriia · 04/10/2026 17:07

Islandsofsand · 04/10/2026 16:30

It’s the degree to which they retaliated and the manner in which they did this.

This is where the disagreement lies.

For example - the Israeli documentary Naza (according to press releases as haven’t seen yet) suggests the number of collateral deaths of innocents was increased in comparison to before and also for lower ranking Hamas members. Family homes were also targeted at night knowing children would be home and killed alongside their father - as Israel could track them by their phones.

Since WW2 we have the Geneva Convention - created in response to the atrocities in that war, including the Holocaust. We have to raise the bar and not use bombing of Dresden, for example, as as a comparison.

Edited

They had hostages. They should've released them? I'd expect our government to react as aggressively if hundreds of innocent people had been abducted.

And again, hamas did everything they could to put any alleged innocents in harms way.

Gloriia · 04/10/2026 17:09

'exhausted from years of being under attack, when there is a very real risk to their lives. I'd say that's pretty admirable'

Yep. The Israelis are absolutely admirable.

SingingShrews · 04/10/2026 17:13

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Islandsofsand · 04/10/2026 17:20

Completely agree that the hostages should have all been released promptly. This would have required negotiations and ceasefires to hold. No wonder the hostages’ families have also been upset at the way the war persisted. I can see their point of view as to question what the priority of their government was

I am sure you’re aware that they were only released by Hamas when there were ceasefires and negotiations.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-hostages-rescues-releases-ceasefire-talks-2025-10-08/

israelilefty · 04/10/2026 19:42

Islandsofsand · 04/10/2026 16:36

I have used this example before- Obama sent in the navy seals to kill Osama bin Laden and limit collateral civilian deaths. He didn’t choose to drop a bomb on his compound.

Edited

By all means criticise Israeli military strategy, but examples like this are not really helpful, because the military situation is not comparable. Osama bin Laden was in a private residence in a sparsely populated area. Even if they had dropped a bomb on the residence there would have not have been huge numbers of civilian casualties. A commando raid was almost certainly chosen for tactical reasons, because they wanted to be sure to capture Bin Laden alive or dead (and to show the world they had done so) and to capture intelligence. To put it crudely: if they used a small bomb they couldn't be certain of killing BL but if they used a large one there might be no evidence of his death.

The IDF did have a low-casualty commando raid in the rescue of hostage Ori Megidish, who was held in an apartment above ground. By contrast, Hamas's senior leadership were in booby-trapped underground tunnels, deliberately located in civilian neighbourhoods and infrastructure including hospitals, mosques and schools (and with hostages as human shields). Likewise, Nasrallah's bunker was 18 metres underground below a residential complex in Beirut. You can absolutely argue about whether bombing these and other targets was legitimate, but they are not locations on which it's possible to mount a commando raid with limited casualties.

SharonEllis · 04/10/2026 20:03

Martymcfly24 · 04/10/2026 09:13

You know what @rainingsnoring why bother.

I have never once heard anyone saying Israel should not exist and I have been on lots of marches (as opposed to the vehemently pro Israel posters who seem to have attended all of them and seen Pro Hamas signs)
It's the same ploy Netanyahu uses to muddy the waters, we won't talk about Israel murdering two mothers (one pregnant) and daughters over the past few days let's just say anyone opposing this doesn't want Israel to exist.
Then the conversation can be steered back to safer grounds
The idea of the question "does Israel have the right to exist" started with Israel themselves and their politically advocacy.
They have pulled off a masterstroke to be honest getting people(I won't use the term useful idiots because it's the main vocabulary of some posters ) in the West with no links to the area to support them while they expand their territory, murder civilians and are still seen as the higher moral ground and victim .

'Judaism yes, zionism no, the state of Israel has to go'. Explain that chant to me then please?

OpheliaWasntMad · 04/10/2026 20:08

israelilefty · 04/10/2026 19:42

By all means criticise Israeli military strategy, but examples like this are not really helpful, because the military situation is not comparable. Osama bin Laden was in a private residence in a sparsely populated area. Even if they had dropped a bomb on the residence there would have not have been huge numbers of civilian casualties. A commando raid was almost certainly chosen for tactical reasons, because they wanted to be sure to capture Bin Laden alive or dead (and to show the world they had done so) and to capture intelligence. To put it crudely: if they used a small bomb they couldn't be certain of killing BL but if they used a large one there might be no evidence of his death.

The IDF did have a low-casualty commando raid in the rescue of hostage Ori Megidish, who was held in an apartment above ground. By contrast, Hamas's senior leadership were in booby-trapped underground tunnels, deliberately located in civilian neighbourhoods and infrastructure including hospitals, mosques and schools (and with hostages as human shields). Likewise, Nasrallah's bunker was 18 metres underground below a residential complex in Beirut. You can absolutely argue about whether bombing these and other targets was legitimate, but they are not locations on which it's possible to mount a commando raid with limited casualties.

Thank you. That’s helpful.
Is there any way you think Israel could have defeated Hamas without the horrendous casualty rate?

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Islandsofsand · 04/10/2026 20:16

israelilefty · 04/10/2026 19:42

By all means criticise Israeli military strategy, but examples like this are not really helpful, because the military situation is not comparable. Osama bin Laden was in a private residence in a sparsely populated area. Even if they had dropped a bomb on the residence there would have not have been huge numbers of civilian casualties. A commando raid was almost certainly chosen for tactical reasons, because they wanted to be sure to capture Bin Laden alive or dead (and to show the world they had done so) and to capture intelligence. To put it crudely: if they used a small bomb they couldn't be certain of killing BL but if they used a large one there might be no evidence of his death.

The IDF did have a low-casualty commando raid in the rescue of hostage Ori Megidish, who was held in an apartment above ground. By contrast, Hamas's senior leadership were in booby-trapped underground tunnels, deliberately located in civilian neighbourhoods and infrastructure including hospitals, mosques and schools (and with hostages as human shields). Likewise, Nasrallah's bunker was 18 metres underground below a residential complex in Beirut. You can absolutely argue about whether bombing these and other targets was legitimate, but they are not locations on which it's possible to mount a commando raid with limited casualties.

Biden in 2023 raised concerns about Israel’s indiscriminate bombing of Gaza after roughly half of the 30,000 bombs dropped by December 2023 were unguided. He knew then that they would loose world support and subsequently banned selling 2000lb bombs to Israel.

I have already noted concerns raised by the documentary Naza about how targets were identified and eliminated.

The situation with Osama bin Laden was unique but I maintain it is stark contrast to how the IDF has approached its targeting and killing of Hamas members in Gaza.

AnyfoolcanknowThepointistounderstand · 04/10/2026 20:46

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israelilefty · 04/10/2026 21:23

Islandsofsand · 04/10/2026 20:16

Biden in 2023 raised concerns about Israel’s indiscriminate bombing of Gaza after roughly half of the 30,000 bombs dropped by December 2023 were unguided. He knew then that they would loose world support and subsequently banned selling 2000lb bombs to Israel.

I have already noted concerns raised by the documentary Naza about how targets were identified and eliminated.

The situation with Osama bin Laden was unique but I maintain it is stark contrast to how the IDF has approached its targeting and killing of Hamas members in Gaza.

Edited

I share your concern about civilian casualties, but still maintain: you are comparing very different circumstances. Isolated Israeli special forces operations where access to the target was possible have also had low civilian casualties (see for example the assassination of Yahya Ayyash, when only he himself was killed).

If you want to compare Gaza with American examples, better examples would be Mosul or Raqqa, or Fallujah. In all of those examples, there was an entrenched combatant population that was deliberately embedded in and fought among civilian populations. There was incredibly great destruction in all of those cities, including over 80% of the buildings becoming uninhabitable in Raqqa. While levels of physical destruction were comparable, the civilian death toll was far higher in Gaza. Part of that was because civilians could not leave urban areas in Gaza as they could in other areas of warfare (for example, few civilians actually remained in Fallujah). Part of that was because the war in Gaza lasted much longer than any of the above so there was far more cumulative exposure. Part of it was to do with the sheer extent of Hamas's underground infrastructure compared to (for example) ISIS infrastructure. And part of it was through Israel's tactical choices and greater acceptance of (Gazan) civilian harm, as is currently being debated.

The point of the above is not to excuse very problematic approaches in Israel, including among senior politicians, to Gazan civilian lives, as borne out in the immense casualty numbers. Holding countries to account for what they do in war is the job of organisations like the ICC. My point is rather that even as non-experts, it's only fair to compare like for like and look at what urban warfare really looks like. An elite special forces raid on a single individual will always look different from urban warfare against many thousands of enemy embedded among hundreds of thousands of civilians.

And to the person asking "Is there any way you think Israel could have defeated Hamas without the horrendous casualty rate?". Israel hasn't defeated Hamas. I believe that the casualty rate could and should have been lower. But I also don't take lightly the actual threat and seriousness of Sinwar, Iran, Hezbollah etc. The failing of Netanyahu's government in the years preceding the war, depressingly, was exactly that: they thought that this could be solved with money and concessions and that Sinwar was not serious about armed conflict.

israelilefty · 04/10/2026 21:29

I want to add: instead of listening to me, it is highly worth listening to Amos Harel, an extremely serious military correspondent in Israel who wrote a book 06:29 which is the closest thing that we have to an independent report on the failures (political and military, on the Israeli side) that led to October 7, Sinwar's plan and so on. If the book is ever translated into English, it's a depressing but very serious background to all the questions being asked here (the podcast misses the sections on what happened during the war, which are present in the actual book):

MsAmerica · 05/10/2026 00:24

Twiglets1 · 04/10/2026 06:06

Trump's an idiot and this site is a UK one not a US one so the Trump obsession is strange to me. Actually it has become boring as have petty insults.

I think that Trump obsessions are probably exclusive to Americans, as we see Trump wrecking our country. However, an interest in Trump news is relevant in the U.K. as we see him wreaking havoc across the world.

OpheliaWasntMad · 05/10/2026 09:24

MsAmerica · 05/10/2026 00:24

I think that Trump obsessions are probably exclusive to Americans, as we see Trump wrecking our country. However, an interest in Trump news is relevant in the U.K. as we see him wreaking havoc across the world.

Stick to the thread or start your own..

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MsAmerica · Yesterday 22:17

OpheliaWasntMad · 05/10/2026 09:24

Stick to the thread or start your own..

I don't consider tangents a problem, but if you do, you should be lecturing the person before me, who started the tangent.

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