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Conflict in the Middle East

Disengagement 710 - Ethnic cleansing!

374 replies

Squeezingwildoranges · 06/09/2026 22:30

If the current Israeli government manage to expel all Palestinians from the land, should all Israelis be held culpable for not trying to stop it.

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hattersmatter · 07/09/2026 02:50

I’ve seen some mad things on this echo chamber board, but this tops them all.

dairydebris · 07/09/2026 06:47

Fgs

Squeezingwildoranges · 07/09/2026 08:51

hattersmatter · 07/09/2026 02:50

I’ve seen some mad things on this echo chamber board, but this tops them all.

Why? This is the platform Ben Gvir is running on. Israel claims to be a democracy so if Gvir gets in again and implements his plan, it's the democratic will of the people. If Reform win the next general election here, it is a mandate from the people but I would expect there to be mass demonstrations against their plan to deport millions of people.

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Twiglets1 · 07/09/2026 09:51

Too many “ifs” not enough acknowledgment of the fact that Ben Gvir doesn’t speak for “all Israelis” so to question whether they should all be held culpable shows a level of contempt for one ethnic group.

I don’t see OP suggesting Palestinians should all be held culpable for not attempting to stop Hamas aggressive actions towards Israelis. That would be unacceptable too. So would holding civilians across the world culpable for the actions of their leaders, for example holding Russians culpable for Putin.

Squeezingwildoranges · 07/09/2026 10:10

Twiglets1 · 07/09/2026 09:51

Too many “ifs” not enough acknowledgment of the fact that Ben Gvir doesn’t speak for “all Israelis” so to question whether they should all be held culpable shows a level of contempt for one ethnic group.

I don’t see OP suggesting Palestinians should all be held culpable for not attempting to stop Hamas aggressive actions towards Israelis. That would be unacceptable too. So would holding civilians across the world culpable for the actions of their leaders, for example holding Russians culpable for Putin.

This is exactly why I asked the question. Many Israelis have said there are no innocents in Gaza and hold the entire population responsible for Oct 7. I know for a fact that there are some Israelis who sympathise deeply with the plight of the Palestinians. If Ben Gvir, and it's not just him but many others too, gets his way and expels the Palestinians, which is what encouraging voluntary emigration is, will there be massive demonstrations in Israel opposing it or will it be both passively and actively supported.

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Twiglets1 · 07/09/2026 10:14

You seem to be attempting to blame all Israelis for the actions of some - why?

hattersmatter · 07/09/2026 10:23

Squeezingwildoranges · 07/09/2026 08:51

Why? This is the platform Ben Gvir is running on. Israel claims to be a democracy so if Gvir gets in again and implements his plan, it's the democratic will of the people. If Reform win the next general election here, it is a mandate from the people but I would expect there to be mass demonstrations against their plan to deport millions of people.

The Palestinians voted for Hamas so are they collectively responsible for Oct 7?

Squeezingwildoranges · 07/09/2026 10:30

Twiglets1 · 07/09/2026 10:14

You seem to be attempting to blame all Israelis for the actions of some - why?

I'm not. I'm attempting a philosophical discussion about when is collective blame justified. If there are massive demonstrations opposing the expulsions, obviously they will have tried to stop it and so should not be blamed. The problem is polls in Israel have shown the majority support getting rid of the Palestinians. I think many of them support it passively and just want to wake up one day and find the Palestinians are gone but there are those that actively support expulsion.

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Squeezingwildoranges · 07/09/2026 10:32

hattersmatter · 07/09/2026 10:23

The Palestinians voted for Hamas so are they collectively responsible for Oct 7?

That's the whole point. Are they? There are many, not just in Israel, who feel that is the case and they deserve what happened in Gaza.

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JadeHare · 07/09/2026 10:49

I find it interesting that people are happy to excuse the behaviour of Ben Gvir and the like, saying he doesn’t represent all of Israel. I read this in the Guardian today. It’s quite chilling.

Last month, the former head of Israel’s national security council, Giora Eiland, pointed out the fact that Israel’s acceptance of Donald Trump’s 15-point plan was a matter of temporary military tactics, rather than long-term peace. “Israel has no interest in Gaza being rebuilt, it’s better for us that it be destroyed for generations to come,” he said.
Moshe Feiglin, previously a “far-right outcast” according to the Times of Israel, is now within reach of a cabinet position as a result of an alliance with the finance minister Bezalel Smotrich’s Religious Zionist party. In a recent interview, Feiglin said that those who didn’t want to leave Gaza should be compelled to by “every way possible. We’ll shut off his water pipes, for example.”
This sort of talk, from within the very ranks of government, is often dismissed as unrepresentative of the Israeli state and, as there are elections ahead, is written off as the lurid but ultimately unserious rhetoric of electioneering. But people such as Ben-Gvir and Katz are not fringe voices, they are ministers with high-impact executive briefs – security and defence – that they have indeed used to push policy that matches their statements.

And if some of the more extreme statements are just electioneering, what does that say about the parameters of discourse in the country if your campaign is mass ethnic cleansing? What does that say about not only the future of Gaza, but all Palestinians in occupied territories who are labouring under home demolitions, militant settlers and the de facto annexation of the West Bank?
Even if these figures are a minority, both in terms of the seats held in the Knesset and the relative number of people who have voted for them, they still hold the levers of power, there is no substantial domestic mobilisation against them, and the rest of the system is unable or unwilling to stop them. The distinctions around how big their constituency may be or how representative they are of Israelis in general matters not a jot to the fate of Palestinians over whom they have been given executive dominion.
The question now is, why are these people not being taken at their word? Why is there no sense of urgency and outrage. Why are these policies and stated goals from the Israeli state not taken seriously and met with appropriate sanctions, trade and arms embargos, and international censure? There is a wild asymmetry when it comes to the perceived potency of Israeli rhetoric and action. “From the river to sea”, for example, as expressed by Palestinians and their supporters has become stigmatised and its use censured. But the most extreme interpretation of that phrase, that it means only one* *sovereign people in the mentioned land, is commonplace in Israel.
The founding charter of Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party states that “between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty”. Netanyahu himself last week attended a gathering at a religious-Zionist yeshiva, nodding along to a Kahanist song belted out by the attenders. “Remember me, please, give me strength just this time, O God, to take revenge, if only for one of my two eyes, on Palestine,” they sang, adding “May their name be erased!” “There are no more red lines,” was how a Haaretz writer described the scene.
The international community has averted its eyes as red lines are trampled over. This can only be a combination of cowardice and acceptance, barely obscured by feeble statements of condemnation here and there, and grounded in the belief or resignation that Palestinian lives shall be consigned to hell. The facts are clear and plentiful. The Israeli right has a plan and a sense of direction, one that it has nursed for a very long time, and now given nourishment by the 7 October attacks.

Opinion | If Ben-Gvir isn't representative of Israel, who is?

The reaction to the flotilla affair exposed the fiction at the heart of Israeli politics: that the racism and extremism now driving government policy exist only on the margins

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2026-05-25/ty-article-opinion/.premium/if-ben-gvir-isnt-representative-of-israel-who-is/0000019e-5b97-d02b-a19f-5bf7cb890000

Squeezingwildoranges · 07/09/2026 11:56

I can find almost no opposition to encouraged voluntary emigration on the basis that it is immoral or cruel. There are a few small groups like B'Tselem and Physicians for Human Rights Israel but other than that nothing. There is opposition but this is always from the point of view that it damages Israel's global reputation, not sympathy for the Palestinians.
https://jiss.org.il/en/heistein-rakov-voluntary-emigration-from-gaza/

Why Proposals for ‘Voluntary Emigration’ From Gaza Are Unworkable, Morally Flawed, and Strategically Harmful to Israel’s Interests - JISS

As Israel advances with plans to take over Gaza, the proposal for the voluntary emigration of Gaza’s Palestinian population has receded from the top of […]

https://jiss.org.il/en/heistein-rakov-voluntary-emigration-from-gaza

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Twiglets1 · 07/09/2026 12:00

Squeezingwildoranges · 07/09/2026 10:30

I'm not. I'm attempting a philosophical discussion about when is collective blame justified. If there are massive demonstrations opposing the expulsions, obviously they will have tried to stop it and so should not be blamed. The problem is polls in Israel have shown the majority support getting rid of the Palestinians. I think many of them support it passively and just want to wake up one day and find the Palestinians are gone but there are those that actively support expulsion.

Collective blame is never justified, you don’t need a philosophical discussion for that.

Squeezingwildoranges · 07/09/2026 12:08

Twiglets1 · 07/09/2026 12:00

Collective blame is never justified, you don’t need a philosophical discussion for that.

Collective punishment is never justified but collective blame happens all the time.

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Twiglets1 · 07/09/2026 12:44

Squeezingwildoranges · 07/09/2026 12:08

Collective punishment is never justified but collective blame happens all the time.

Not least by you re your question should all Israelis be held culpable

Squeezingwildoranges · 07/09/2026 12:53

Twiglets1 · 07/09/2026 12:44

Not least by you re your question should all Israelis be held culpable

I said in the event that they allow or even support the expulsion of all the Palestinians.

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Twiglets1 · 07/09/2026 12:59

Squeezingwildoranges · 07/09/2026 12:53

I said in the event that they allow or even support the expulsion of all the Palestinians.

That supposed event could never include "all Israelis" unless you think Israelis all think with one brain (which would make them different or other than all other populations).

Squeezingwildoranges · 07/09/2026 13:08

Twiglets1 · 07/09/2026 12:59

That supposed event could never include "all Israelis" unless you think Israelis all think with one brain (which would make them different or other than all other populations).

Of course it doesn't include all Israelis actually being involved in the expulsion but if they don't object by protesting they are passively supporting it. If two thugs from a group physically assault someone and the rest of the group stands around and don't try to stop it, they are passively supporting it.

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Twiglets1 · 07/09/2026 13:11

Squeezingwildoranges · 07/09/2026 13:08

Of course it doesn't include all Israelis actually being involved in the expulsion but if they don't object by protesting they are passively supporting it. If two thugs from a group physically assault someone and the rest of the group stands around and don't try to stop it, they are passively supporting it.

Are all the Palestinians who don't protest against Hamas passively supporting them? All the Iranian people who don't protest against the IRGC? All the Russian people who don't protest against Putin?

Antisemitic thread holding Jewish people to higher standards than anyone else - for an event that hasn't even happened.

Squeezingwildoranges · 07/09/2026 13:19

Twiglets1 · 07/09/2026 13:11

Are all the Palestinians who don't protest against Hamas passively supporting them? All the Iranian people who don't protest against the IRGC? All the Russian people who don't protest against Putin?

Antisemitic thread holding Jewish people to higher standards than anyone else - for an event that hasn't even happened.

There's protesting and being able to protest. There is also the situation where even if you don't like your leadership you will still support your country if attacked as in the case of Iran. It is an event that may never happen if no other countries will help them do it.

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DeterminedRat · 07/09/2026 19:16

It depends on what you mean by 'culpable' really.

When someone thinks of Ireland for instance they might think green, alcoholics, car bombs, leprechauns, backwards, friendly whatever has stuck in their head from media they have watched or read, Irish people they have met, history they may have read. People tend to take snippets and form associations that they think of when they think of x nationality.

Will some people instantly think of 20000 dead children, family boat tours to cheer bombings, little Hind Rajab, tiktok dances in stolen underwear, people attacking aid trucks as children suffered. Of course they will. If Israel(the government in case anyone gets confused) ethnically cleanse Gaza then of course some people will instantly think of that when meeting an Israeli or hearing of Israel. Equally I'm sure some people will think of gay rights or people who just want peace or whatever.

Its just word association and human nature.

Twiglets1 · 07/09/2026 19:26

DeterminedRat · 07/09/2026 19:16

It depends on what you mean by 'culpable' really.

When someone thinks of Ireland for instance they might think green, alcoholics, car bombs, leprechauns, backwards, friendly whatever has stuck in their head from media they have watched or read, Irish people they have met, history they may have read. People tend to take snippets and form associations that they think of when they think of x nationality.

Will some people instantly think of 20000 dead children, family boat tours to cheer bombings, little Hind Rajab, tiktok dances in stolen underwear, people attacking aid trucks as children suffered. Of course they will. If Israel(the government in case anyone gets confused) ethnically cleanse Gaza then of course some people will instantly think of that when meeting an Israeli or hearing of Israel. Equally I'm sure some people will think of gay rights or people who just want peace or whatever.

Its just word association and human nature.

I think some of those word associations are offensive, even just the Ireland ones!

“Backwards” for Christs sake?

Francine84 · 07/09/2026 19:38

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Francine84 · 07/09/2026 19:40

Twiglets1 · 07/09/2026 19:26

I think some of those word associations are offensive, even just the Ireland ones!

“Backwards” for Christs sake?

I notice you just ignored all of the valid points about the evil things Israel has done… Just ignore anything that doesn’t fit with your narrative of Israel being the poor victims who just HAD to kill tens of thousands of children to defend themselves

Ipsevenenabibas · 07/09/2026 19:51

Squeezingwildoranges · 06/09/2026 22:30

If the current Israeli government manage to expel all Palestinians from the land, should all Israelis be held culpable for not trying to stop it.

That question collapses the moment you apply its logic consistently.

A government does not magically transfer its moral agency to every person living under it. If collective citizenship makes someone culpable for everything their government does, then the principle applies universally: every citizen becomes morally responsible for every state crime they failed to prevent, regardless of their actual knowledge, power, opposition, or ability to intervene.

That isn’t accountability. It’s collective guilt.

The intellectually serious question is not “Are all Israelis culpable?” It is: Who supported, enabled, facilitated, or had meaningful power to prevent the expulsion—and what did each person actually do?

If you have evidence that someone knowingly supported or materially enabled forced expulsion, hold that person accountable. But turning “Israeli” into a synonym for “culpable” simply replaces individual responsibility with ethnic or national collective blame.

And if your moral principle only sounds convincing when applied to one population, it probably isn’t a moral principle at all.

SharonEllis · 07/09/2026 20:02

Ipsevenenabibas · 07/09/2026 19:51

That question collapses the moment you apply its logic consistently.

A government does not magically transfer its moral agency to every person living under it. If collective citizenship makes someone culpable for everything their government does, then the principle applies universally: every citizen becomes morally responsible for every state crime they failed to prevent, regardless of their actual knowledge, power, opposition, or ability to intervene.

That isn’t accountability. It’s collective guilt.

The intellectually serious question is not “Are all Israelis culpable?” It is: Who supported, enabled, facilitated, or had meaningful power to prevent the expulsion—and what did each person actually do?

If you have evidence that someone knowingly supported or materially enabled forced expulsion, hold that person accountable. But turning “Israeli” into a synonym for “culpable” simply replaces individual responsibility with ethnic or national collective blame.

And if your moral principle only sounds convincing when applied to one population, it probably isn’t a moral principle at all.

Not to mention being illegal under international law.