Triggernometry - interview with Netanyahu

[Digitalhen]

Thoughts on this interview?

Massive scoop for the Trigger podcast.

It’s not that clear cut. Starvation in NKorea isn’t caused directly by sanctions. There are no sanctions directly targeting food and medical aid. You could argue that it exasperates the situation on the ground and indeed parts of the UN has argued this.

It’s certainly debatable whether sanctions should be lifted but it’s not remotely comparable to the starvation in Gaza that is caused directly by Israeli government policy. Whereby they are purposely blocking and delaying aid and where aid has been weaponised and used as part of a military strategy.

Incorrect information.

Not all incredibly dark @PaxAeterna
Check out the share price for Rheinmetall and other similar companies. They've all done pretty well since the Ukraine invasion and the added "bonus" of October 2023 means that you could buy a share for €233 Oct 6 2023 and if you sold it yesterday, you'd get around €1,620 for it. Pure coincidence that Germany is the second largest exporter of arms to Israel.
Any wonder some people want to see this "war" continue ?

It is not that it is far back in history. it’s because the sheer amount of civilian death was the catalyst for the transformation of international law.

War crimes are feature of most wars, you are correct but this doesn’t mean that they can be justified or minimised. Also the number of civilian deaths in the time frame, the scale of the destruction and now the purposeful starvation of the population means that for a western backed war - this is exceptional - and there has not been an attempt to avoid war crimes. instead it seems that these crimes against humanity are part of the military strategy. The fact is that if these crimes were committed by Russia for example the response from western governments would be extremely different.

responding to a few of your points , plus a general point

1. I’m based in Israel- I’ve been very open about that. I have never heard of Hasbara Fellows. I am acquainted with a few people who are pro Israeli social media posters (not on mumsnet), including Hillel Fuld. They’ve never even heard of mumsnet, and they are certainly not being paid. The Israeli spokesperson department (or whatever it’s called) are clearly not competent, the idea they are organised enough to pay people to post on mumsnet is completely unrealistic.

2. you are once again using holocaust inversion. It’s possible to criticise Israel without doing so 🙏

3. this isn’t the first time I’ve seen the chosen people concept come up as a trope that completely misinterprets what the chosen people thing actually means to religious Jews (it’s a religious Jewish concept, not an Israeli concept). You have put in a later post ‘The ideology of one group of people being chosen by God is not that dissimilar to the horrendous thinking behind a Master race - it puts one group as above everyone else, imagine being chosen by God, you could do no wrong, you could use it to justify burning down people’s houses, shooting them, stealing their land as settlers do on a day to day basis.’ This completely misrepresents what the chosen people thing actually is. It actually means the opposite of thinking you can do no wrong. And again- a Holocaust reference - really?
   I’m going to quote myself from another thread explaining what the chosen people concept actually refers to, because its late and I’m tired
   “ in Orthodox Judaism, we believe you don’t need to be Jewish to earn your place in the World to Come, and you don’t need to be Jewish to have a meaningful and close relationship with Gd, and to live righteously. You just need to keep the 7 Noahide laws. We consider there to be many pathways to becoming close to Gd - even within Judaism there is a lot of different ways of living and observing.
   We don’t actively seek to convert others, because we don’t believe that being Jewish makes someone ‘better’ or that they need to be ‘saved’. We believe that the Torah was offered to our ancestors, and we undertook and accepted to keep its commandments. But that doesn’t mean we think only our way is right, or superior, it’s just that keeping the Torah is our role and responsibility. This is where the idea of being the ‘chosen people’ comes from. It’s a role, not a rank. Every nation and people have their own purpose, and the Jewish people have theirs.”

4. (not responding to you specifically)
   in general, there seems to me to be a complete absence of recognition that Israel remains under attack. Ballistic missile last night (Fri night, which is part of the Jewish Sabbath). Have you ever seen a ballistic missile? When exploded by the defence , the shrapnel that flies in remains deadly. Constant attempted terrorist attacks (shooting the other day). Even Gaza is still sending rockets in, albeit at a significantly reduced rate.

Thank you for posting @EllaDisenchanted

Thanks for posting @EllaDisenchanted . Chosen people has been misunderstood I think and thanks for explaining it.

I don’t think that the Jewish religion or culture is inherently violent and I don’t think we should conflate these military actions and atrocities with Judaism. There are many Jewish and Israeli voices critical of what is happening.

Amazing post @EllaDisenchanted

The idea that someone must have grown up indoctrinated by Israel, be paid by Israel or be a Hasbara Fellow (whatever that is) in order to support a country that has been attacked by terrorists is quite sad. I would support any country attacked by terrorists, whether it's in Israel, England, France or wherever.

I am none of those things suggested by @RandomWordsThrownTogether but an atheist who grew up in London.

The holocaust inversion is horrible to witness and I think people who wish to make points against the IDF or Israeli government should be able to express themselves without resorting to that.

I second that. Always so courteous, even when faced with adversity.

The holocaust inversion is getting worse - both out there and on here. I've talked about the undertones, many times: posters starting off with 'innocent' probing questions about Judaism, then accelerating their underlying hate. Forgive my ignorance, but has anybody had feedback from MN and their stance on posters exhibiting the inversion? It's taken very seriously, so I hope mods are deleting posts alluding to it.

In fact, this is something that might be worth addressing in Site Stuff.

Isn't that because Israel's actions are becoming more extreme? Because of ever increasing concerns over genocide?

As Israel's ethnic cleansing and genocide accelerates, is hardly surprising that more people are thinking about the worst genocide ever seen, simply because it's the one we all know about.

If Israel stopped committing genocide, then people wouldn't be accusing it of genocide.

I'm not aware of any MN comment on holocaust inversion.

Is it taken very seriously by them? I haven't noticed that personally.

It was presented to parliament as a motion. That's why I say it's a serious issue. I wish mods would spend as much time deleting blatant antisemitic posts as they do mine. It's not just mine, of course. The two I've had deleted today - hmmmm

No, it's because people are antisemitic.

Oh I see what you mean. Yes it is a serious issue, I agree.

I also think it's just crass to keep repeating holocaust terms on MN when you know it is triggering for some other users.

They know what they are doing. The post above, when talking about Israel "being the worst genocide as it's the one we all know about." More weaponising of the holocaust to cause maximum distress.

Nope.
Just people that actually care about human rights.

Make your excuses and accusations as you wish, but it's painfully obvious that it's a diversion tactic.

Straight from the holocaust inversion textbook. Well done 👏

https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/64090/antisemitism-and-holocaust-inversion

https://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/antisemitism-defined-why-drawing-comparisons-of-contemporary-israeli-policy-to-the-nazis-is-antisemitic

More people know about the Holocaust because it's the worst genocide ever (so far, and hopefully forever).

It's the one that kids universally learn about in school - with good reason - it can never be allowed to happen again.

Expecting people to ignore parallels (where they exist) and scramble round to find lesser known genocides to compare it to us unrealistic.

Even chat gtp if you ask for comparative situations to various things happening in Gaza gives ww2 ones very high up, and I really don't think they are motivated by anti semitism.

It's uncomfortable where there are parallels, but the answer to this isn't for people to do talking, but Israel to stop killing.

There are no parallels, which is why attempting to draw them is antisemitic. I suggest you stop doubling down on it.

So chat gtp's ones, that is raised itself are AI also being anti semetic now? 😂

This was, for example in response to the proposed concentration camp, which thankfully have been given green light (yet).

Apologies @Digitalhen for the derailment. Given what's been seen, today in some dubious posts, I was reminded of how important it is to stamp out the constant use of holocaust inversion.