So are MSF wrong about Gaza too?

[OneKookyShark]

I have read multiple posts both on here and on the CITME forum- and I am aware how toxic the debate is.

But surely when Legitimate and highly respected international NGO talks of ‘orchestrated killing and dehuminisation”, then it starts to become utterly undeniable?

I am sure someone will be along to tell me otherwise. I also note that Netenyahu has ordered a full occupation of Gaza city today.

“Médecins Sans Frontières calls for immediate closure of Gaza Humanitarian Foundation
The medical NGO Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) has called for the immediate closure of Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF), the US- and Israeli-backed aid organisation operating in Gaza, describing GHF-run food distribution sites in Gaza as having become sites of “orchestrated killing and dehumanisation”.
In a social media post on Thursday, MSF wrote:
“In MSF’s nearly 54 years of operations, rarely have we seen such levels of systematic violence against unarmed civilians.”
The GHF-run food distributions in Gaza, Palestine, have become sites of “orchestrated killing and dehumanisation”, not humanitarian aid.
In a new report, MSF analysed medical data, patients’ testimonies and first-hand medical witnesses at two MSF clinics in Gaza and found that it “point[ed] to both targeted and indiscriminate violence by Israeli forces and private American contractors against starved Palestinians” at food distribution sites run by the GHF”

But they literally seized power and stopped elections. It’s not infantilisation - it’s literally what happened. Yes, people voted for Hamas but it wasn’t some huge majority, it doesn’t necessarily reflect how the Gazan population feel today and it definitely doesn’t justify killing many people.

Maybe I should have used the word "minimising" Hamas.

I felt you were minimising Hamas goals by saying their goal was "liberating Palestine from Israel Occupation" which sounds almost noble.

The reality is Hamas policies are aimed at destroying the Jewish state of Israel and killing Jews.

No I don't mean by people in Gaza.

I mean by all the people and governments that are focusing on Israel and what they are doing wrong but not focusing much on the need to remove Hamas from Gaza. Only Israel seem obsessed with that.

This is an excellent expose of MSF in a French article. It can be translated and is detailed in the thread which can also be translated on X. I can read French better than I speak it so can understand the article and it’s translation seems to pretty much match up.

https://x.com/SlMONWEINBERG/status/1853026091461476778

Rima Hassan was on the Freedom Flotilla with Greta wasn’t she?

They were a hostile entity to Israel yes like Israel was to them
(Israel used the term itself at a UN meeting)

We are in agreement there.

Regarding the self governance that is one that could be debated with the advantages of hindsight.
Would self governance have taken away the power Hamas held? It's like the aid situation flood the area with aid and it becomes worthless and takes away Hamas power.
In the short term Israel would still have had to protect itself massively but over time the idealogy would have lost its grip you would imagine.
If the PA was in power with self governance in the Gaza Strip, something Netanyahu opposed as it would advance establishment of a Palestinian state would a more moderate population have grown up after all 1 m of the population are children which would have led to the power of extremists being taken away

It was a majority. More Palestinian people voted freely for them than any other Palestinian leadership proposal.

But I don't disagree with most of what you say.

I really struggle with the word justify on here. I agree, in bald terms, the death of 1300 Israelis does not justify the death of 60k+ Palestinians. But I dont think 'justify' is a very useful term in war. Was the death of so many German children in ww2 'justified'? Was the bombing of Hiroshima 'justfied'? If yes, Nagasaki? I worry whether something was justified on not only becomes clear years after the event?

Despite the constant accusations thrown my way on here, I can't say killing of children is justfied. I do think Hamas needs to go, and I'm glad I don't have to make any decisions on what is, or isnt, an acceptable level of collateral.

I really am not but unless we fully understand why Hamas came to power we will only create another group like them when they are defeated. We can't ignore the fact that this was one of their election promises which is part of the reason they won because if Netanyahu is true about Gaza having another government we can't repeat the same mistakes and letting more violent extremists take power.

The Palestinians were represented by the secular Fatah for decades. Fatah renounced armed resistance to Israel in 1993, they also collaborate with Israel to arrest Palestinians. Since 1993, illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank (land thieves and violent things) increased exponentially to over 700,000. No Israeli govt has ever offered to pull them back to within the borders of Israel in any peace deal.
Gaza also had illegal settlements. Armed resistance forced the Israeli government to withdraw them (the much vaunted "oh look we gave them Gaza and see what they did!!") but what no one makes clear in Western media is, the Israeli settlers withdrew but a strangling blockade around Gaza by land sea and air was maintained ever since 2006. The world's largest open air prison according to many including Ilan Pappe and Avi Shlaim (Israeli professional). Gazans voted for Hamas in 2006 because Fatah has become massively corrupt, and there was no other viable leadership option.

I feel exactly the same.

As I understand it, but happy to be proved wrong if you can direct me otherwise, Fatah were the more moderate of the 2, had come recently to believe that it was in the best interests of the Palestinian people to try to live alongside Israel rather than keep trying to destroy it, and Hamas was the more militant and had a much more conservative Islamic structure in mind. That was what the people chose.

A significant proportion of Palestinian society ( at least at that time ) denied the right of Israel to exist on this part of the planet at all.

How do you live alongside that? How do you allow self governance to that?

I would imagine under peace over time the ideology would lose its power as you say yes, as long as peoples lives were improving and they could see a future. Sadly neither party at the moment wants peace, so here we are.

Totally agree about not making the same mistakes with regard to letting more violent extremists take power.

More moderate leaders on both sides, please!

The last election in Gaza when Hamas were voted into power was in 2006. The voting age in Palestine is 18. No-one under the age of 36 has had the opportunity to vote in any elections in Gaza, so the narrative that the Palestinian civilians being killed and maimed brought this on themselves by voting for Hamas is unfair and untrue.

I think this is partly because Israel is so much more visible than Hamas. Yes, Hamas will be fighting back and killing IDF soldiers but the widespread bombing of homes and infrastructure is more ‘newsworthy’ because it’s more visible. The atrocities happening within Gaza won’t be known until after it’s all over.

I never said Palestinian civilians bought this upon themselves. They did bring Hamas on themselves originally though. Hamas didn't 'seize power,' they were handed it in an election where their policies were very very clear.

All those Palestinians who have been killed and maimed since October 7th would still be alive if Hamas hadn't done what it did. Their homes would still be standing.

They didn't bring it upon themselves but their own government knowingly bought it on them. And thats where our outrage should lie.

Hamas received 44 % 74seats
Fatah received 41% 45 seats.

How many lives could have been saved if those numbers were reversed?.

So it wasn't a complete landslide really but agree the mandate for Hamas was there.

its just a chicken and egg situation. Israel fearful of Palestinian aims of destruction, deny self governance. Palestine angry at lack of self governance vote in extremists who want to destroy Israel.
Deadlock.

Yes. God. Awful to think how many lives could have been saved by just a small difference back then.

Honestly I think both narratives are legitimate. Both narratives have enough facts to back them up.

I see it as a fundamental failure of leadership on both sides.

Palestinians didn’t have self governance in 2006 but were able to vote in Hamas?

Do you see a problem with that statement?

Agreed. It's a fundamental failure all round.

A sliding doors moment in which the better option definitely lost.

I support a two state solution. However, Hamas does not and will not agree to it - and Palestinians (a name that really refers to anyone living in that area, including Jews) who are Arabs and Muslims have rejected the solution several times since 1947.
No-one 'owned' the statehood of the lands that are now Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel and Gaza before the 1930s - they had been part of the Ottoman Empire and then part of the Mandate for Palestine and then under UN jurisdiction after WWII - at least it was the UN (not the UK) which designated how the lands were carved up after 1947, giving a portion of them to Jews as a homeland as, prior to WWII, Lebanon had been given to Maronite Christians etc.
Netanyahu is appalling and appears to be hated by his own people. A great many Palestinians living in Gaza, however, support Hamas and its agenda to destroy all Jewry. Those who dared speak out - a few appeared on TV - I hope were evacuated to safety since Hamas' solution to disagreement with its policies is to kill the people who disagree. In Israel people take to the streets to protest against Netanyahu's actions - and live.
Meanwhile, Hamas has published pictures of the remaining living hostages being forced to dig their own graves - and those men have obviously been starved. What about protesting about this?
And the war would have ended on 8th Oct 23 had the hostages been returned.

The reason Palestinians have rejected two state solutions before is that they didn't include a right of return for Palestinian refugees. I don't think the proposal for the state of Israel would have been accepted under those conditions.

Do you think Palestinian refugees should have the right of return? What do you think 'right of return' means?

Yes they should. Palestine is their homeland too.

So you think the millions of Palestinians displaced in the 1948 war should be allowed to return to within Israels borders? ( the ones proposed by the UN )

Do you not think that might lead to quite an unstable situation? Maybe a brutal civil war? You honestly think Israel should allow this?

No this just isn't accurate. Fatah renounced armed resistance in 1993. An Israeli assassinated Yitzhak Rabin because he came close to offering the Palestinians a fair deal in exchange. no Israeli leader has either wanted or dared to offer a fair deal to the Palestinians since that's no accident. Hamas wasn't voted in til 2006, 13 years after Fatah laid down arms, 13 years in which Israeli settlers stole land at an exponential rate, killed burned stolen poisoned livestock etc. 13 years of schoolchildren being shot dead by the IDF. 13 years of violent Apartheid (as per the UN, ICJ, Amnesty, HRW). 13 years of Palestinians being randomly seized and locked up including children, Israel being the only country to try children in military jails, and the conviction rate is over 98%. Many are held in administrative detention i.e. no evidence no trial. See UNICEF report child detainees OPT 2013 which makes clear that the practice has been ongoing for decades.

Israel is not interested in peace, they want the whole of the West Bank and the Gaza strip. If you disagree with that statement please show me evidence since Rabin of a good-faith move from Israel. (Withdrawal of settlements from Gaza but keeping a strangling blockade by land sea and air is NOT good faith.)

Israel drove Palestinians into the arms of Hamas. Just like the viciousness of the white Apartheid regime in South Africa drove the impoverished black population into more violent groups.

Most people easily make the distinction between Israelis and Netanyahu's government, and Palestinians and Hamas. A minority refuse to do so because it suits their hatefilled, crazy beliefs.

I agree that Netenyahu needs to go for Israel's sake. He's Hamas's best weapon.