Israeli security cabinet expected to approve Gaza takeover plan

[Twiglets1]

Sky News report that Israel is expected to approve Benjamin Netanyahu's plan for a takeover of Gaza when the security cabinet meets later today.

According to the Times of Israel, the full cabinet is due to convene at 6pm local time, 4pm in the UK.

Israeli media are reporting that the plan could potentially span over five months, and it is likely to be aimed at destroying Hamas and pressuring it to free remaining hostages.

While some ministers have been critical of the plan, reports suggest Netanyahu is likely to secure a majority of support.

https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-latest-hostages-famine-aid-hamas-idf-war-palestine-state-live-13398805

This 'policy' what are you basing this on?

Because their constitution says the opposite and I'm not aware they've changed their stated position on this. Obviously some individuals may have a more extreme position.

Hamas are bad enough without making up stuff.

Hamas are a terrorist organisation and I do not support them; however, I think you are over simplifying a complex situation. You understand that not everyone in the IDF is evil but you do not understand the same about Hamas despite the much larger murder count on the Israeli side.

Some in Hamas may be motivated by anti semitism; however the biggest motivation would be people who have had family members murdered by Israel or their houses stolen and have had their grief twisted into hate. Like in any army or terrorist organisation sociopaths at the top often manipulate the youth and it is hugely traumatic to have family members murdered. You may even grow to hate the group who murdered your family, not because of their religion but because they murdered someone you love.

Many adults in Gaza have ptsd from childhood trauma when they were bombed by Israel. It has been 80 years since people were first driven from their land and houses and every few years Israel blanket bombs the whole region or shoots little kids playing on the beach. Many have been held as children in Israeli prisons for months without trial, tortured and tormented by their adult captors. We’ve seen the bombings on our tv screens since our childhoods but they have lived with the bombs, not knowing if they will be alive tomorrow. The treatment of Palestinians over the decades has allowed the rise of Hamas, as well of course funding from the Israeli government.

So, not everyone in Hamas is evil, and only some of them are motivated by antisemitism? Thats your position?

I think you may need to read this again as I would just be repeating myself.

Defending Hamas oh dear.

It’s exactly what you said - that I don’t understand that not everyone in Hamas is evil.

Why do you defend a terrorist organisation that has unleashed this hellish situation - not only upon Israel but also upon Gazans too who are suffering greatly as a result.

I'm sorry but I don't see any difference, there is many instances of Israeli politicians making comments that amount to the fact that Palestinians are less than human and should be wiped of the face of the earth. If those beliefs didn't exist in the highest office the IDF would not get away with behaving as they do

What I would say re @Alittlefeedbackwouldbenice comments is that labelling Hamas members sub-human or evil is understandable (they have committed horrendous acts) but not necessarily helpful when trying to work out how to stop the cycle of extremism.

Members of Hamas are driven to extremism for a number of reasons and those need to be identified and unpicked in order to ensure it doesn’t happen again. People who grow up being treated a certain way (either by their government or by their neighbours), watching family members killed or just disappearing, being imprisoned as children etc is incredibly damaging to your world view. I can’t imagine how I would feel if my parents were killed in a bomb attack or my child had been tortured in prison or if my home had just been taken from me. Does this mean we forgive and forget the terrorists’ actions? Obviously not. Does this mean they shouldn’t be killed in combat or for military roles? Again, obviously not because that’s war. But I think the language around Hamas is really important and understanding why they exist is key to ‘fixing’ the issue long term. Hamas didn’t start in a vacuum. It didn’t end up leading Gaza because Palestinians are born violent antisemitics. The reason Hamas exists isn’t just because there are bad, violent people in the world. A huge simplification but happy people tend not to plan and execute horrendous acts on others.

So whilst I don’t condone or defend what members of Hamas have done, because they have done the worst acts you can do to another human, I think it is important to understand why extremism is appealing to some and to not pretend they are another species. How do humans reach a point where they can do that to others? Would we, under the same conditions, be susceptible to such horrendous acts? What can be done to make extremism the least attractive option to desperate people.

In other news, I saw that Grok (a fan fav of some) has returned to X after a ban and has, alongside some other less than ideal sources, decided the AS’s Telegram from 7/10 is fake. Does anyone know what normal telegram messages look like? Apparently the date would never appear in the text box as it does in the shared images. Perhaps some more tech savvy MNs can weigh in. Obviously there is more evidence (some classified) so I’m not saying this being fake proves anything substantial. I just don’t like misformation being spread so want to know either way.

No. Defending truth and honesty.

I just don't see why you are making up stuff?

I haven't worked out if it's just a casual disregard for truth or a deliberate wish to spread propaganda.

It's very telling that your response to being faced with an uncomfortable question is deflection. It's kind of obvious.

You just carry on defending Hamas and trying to peddle the narrative they aren’t all bad.

@PinkBobby do you really think anyone sensible is going to use Grok to determine the authenticity of the evidence around this journalists allegiance to Hamas ( or not)?

There is a whole raft of evidence that will be very carefully studied- probably in a legal case - and I don’t think you mentioning what Grok thinks is very helpful.

I also don’t think anyone on MN is going to be able to determine the validity or otherwise of evidence. You will just get another rehash of people’s opinions because the reality is - we don’t know.

I completely agree!

Just to say, I know you quoted me, but I actually haven't said anything as yet about the 'are they evil' discussion.

I think life is more complicated than good and evil. I have met (via work) many people others would consider evil: murderers, child rapists, horribly abusive men. All have committed evil, all have certain evil tendencies, but none in my view were 100% bad. 'Good' people can do evil things, and 'bad' people can do good things. Perhaps due to my Christian faith, I feel that all people can achieve a certain amount of redemption, and hold reconciliation very high.

So now I don't feel that all Hamas are evil. I don't think all IDF are evil. Most of them on both sides are still in their teens or barely older, have no hatred their whole life, and both sides have enough reasons to hate. That doesn't justify what either side have done and are doing, if we fail to address the reasons for that anger, we are doomed to repeat it generation upon generation.

Both sides are terrified that if they lay down arms, they will be obliterated. Mostly because they each make threats of that to each other!

Even someone like Netanyahu, whose behaviour I despise, and who I hope will receive justice with the international criminal courts, I don't think is irredeemably evil. He will have positive traits, probably loves his family, he may be a good friend. The same goes in my opinion for the Hamas leaders. They may have good traits, but they are dwarfed by suffering they cause, just like in Israeli leadership.

Life doesn't have comic book villains, that you can split into good and bad. People are a lot more complicated than that.

Haha, you continue blatantly deflecting rather than answering questions. Just looks like you don't have an actual answer.

I've been around you enough that you know I despise Hamas, because I've said it about 50 million times. It doesn't mean you should just make up much to throw at them, or anyone else though.

If telling the truth is important, and minimising misinformation is important, it's important that it's done for all sides. That's not defending Hamas, that's defending the importance of truth.

So the question doesn't get lost in these 'deflections' I'll ask it again. You said:

"Hamas though has a policy of wanting to kill all Jews even outside of wartime chaos"

I asks you for the source of this, given they explicitly say the opposite in their constitution.

I'd say their source of this belief is that members of Hamas filmed themselves murdering innocent people at a party in peacetime while screaming 'Kill the Jewish Dogs'.

The Palestinian Hamas terrorist organization was founded in 1987 to fulfill one and only one mission—a fundamentalist Sunni Islamist quest to annihilate Israel by killing Jews.

How do we know this? Because Hamas proclaims it in its 1988 founding, charter document, The Hamas Covenant. The second paragraph declares to all the world that, “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” The introduction section promises “[o]ur struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious” and will only end when “the enemy is vanquished and Allah’s victory is realized,” and declares that Hamas and the people are ready “to sacrifice life and all that is precious for the sake of Allah.” Article 8 affirms that “Jihad is [Hamas’s] path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of [Hamas’s] wishes.”

Article 7 states:
The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: ‘The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’

Article 12 instructs that resistance to destroy Israel is “the individual duty of every Moslem” and that even “[a] woman can go out to fight the enemy without her husband’s permission.” Hamas’s charter instructs Palestinians to raise children to wage jihad against the Jews (Article 18) and warns Palestinians that peace negotiations, “peaceful solutions,” and normalization of the Jews are forbidden and that anyone who engages in them is a traitor destined for hell (Article 13).

isgap.org/flashpoint/what-hamas-leaders-actually-want-in-their-own-words/

From the same article:

And Hamas leaders tell us—over and over—they are dedicated to the sole goal of annihilating Israel by killing Jews. Following are just a few examples:

On May 11, 2011, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas official and cleric Yunis Al-Astal explained, “[t]he [Jews] are brought in droves to Palestine so that the Palestinians – and the Islamic nation behind them – will have the honor of annihilating the evil of this gang,” promising, “[i]n just a few years, all the Zionists and the settlers will realize that their arrival in Palestine was for the purpose of the great massacre, by means of which Allah wants to relieve humanity of their evil.”

On August 20, 2012, in a sermon broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas official Sheik Ahmad Bahr prayed, “Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.”

On March 2, 2014, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas cleric Wael Al-Zard noted that “[t]he Palestinian woman . . . . is no longer satisfied merely with equipping her sons for Jihad,” but that now “[s]he equips herself, prepares herself, trains herself, and takes up arms herself.”

On March 23, 2014, at a “Perseverance and Loyalty to the Martyr’s Path” rally, broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Ismail Haniyah, head of Hamas’s political bureau, proclaimed that “[w]e are a people that yearn for death, just as our enemies yearn for life,” and Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad promised that Hamas would destroy Israel within a few years.

On January 29, 2016, Haniyah explained, “East of the city of Gaza, there are heroes underground, digging through rocks and building tunnels. West of Gaza, there are heroes testing rockets every day. This is all in preparation – in tunnels underground, by means of missiles in the air, as well as in the sea, and everywhere. This constant preparation is for the sake of Palestine, Jerusalem, Al-Aqsa, and for the sake of the Jerusalem Intifada.”

On July 12, 2018, at a rally broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamad predicted “the cleansing of Palestine of the filth of the Jews, and their uprooting from it, Allah willing” and “the establishment of the Caliphate, after the nation has been healed of its cancer – the Jews – Allah willing.”

On November 16, 2018, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar declared that Israel “will never get anything but guns, fire, martyrdom, death, and killing” from Gaza.

On July 22, 2018, during a speech broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Gaza Shari’a appeals court judge Sheikh Omar Nofal praised the six virtues of martyrdom, calling it an “individual duty incumbent upon the entire nation,” and asking “[h]ow can anyone cling to this world after hearing all of these great rewards?”

On June 23, 2019, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas MP Marwan Abu Ras explained about Jews that, “everything people say about massacres and Holocaust – these are all lies. Hitler may have hated them, but it was because of their deeds and crimes.”

On July 12, 2019, at a March of Return rally that aired on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas Political Bureau member Fathi Hammad implored “you seven million Palestinians abroad, enough warming up! There are Jews everywhere! We must attack every Jew on planet Earth – we must slaughter and kill them, with Allah’s help.” He instructed, “[w]e will die while exploding and cutting the necks and legs of the Jews. We will lacerate them and tear them to pieces, Allah willing!”

On May 7, 2021, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, senior Hamas official Fathi Hammad called for Palestinians in Jerusalem to “cut off the heads of the Jews.”

On December 12, 2022, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, head of the Hamas Women’s Movement Rajaa Al-Halabi explained that a girl who sets out to be a “martyrdom-seeker” has “only one thing on her mind – to meet her Lord by means of her blood and her body parts,” noting that kindergarten teachers raise children to love Jihad.

On April 8, 2022, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas official Talal Nassar opined, “I believe that the occupation is heading towards annihilation, and on this platform, I swear by Allah, and let everybody remember this pledge: Those of us who will still be alive will tread with their pure feet… After we trample with our feet all over the skulls of the Zionists, we will tread on the land of Haifa, Jaffa, Tiberias, Jerusalem, and all of the West Bank and our dear [Gaza] Strip. There is no difference between the [borders of] 1967 and 1948.”

Hamas has delivered on its promise to kill Jews. During the span of more than three decades before October 7, Hamas perpetrated dozens of suicide bombings, hundreds of other in person attacks, and thousands of rocket and missile attacks—almost all targeting Israeli civilians—murdering hundreds of Israelis and injuring thousands of others. And these were only those attacks not thwarted by Israel. Because of these acts, in 1997 the US designated Hamas as a terrorist organization, with the European Union following suit in 2003.

isgap.org/flashpoint/what-hamas-leaders-actually-want-in-their-own-words/

I only mentioned Grok as someone used it to prove the validity of that message just the other day. There are other sources (none of which I would base my opinion on) who say the same due to the way the Telegram image looks. I was simply curious whether anyone used Telegram and could confirm that each message isn’t time and date stamped. Don’t worry - I’ll leave actual analysis to the pros. I’m just curious.

Also, re the Hamas Charter, you should take account the 2017 version which did actually remove the antisemitic angle. I’m not saying Hamas are now the good guy and love all Jewish people but it seems fair to at least take into account both documents when working out factions there may be within Hamas.

Are you aware that the 1988 original charter had been widely criticised for being antisemitic (understatement) so the 2017 version changed the wording from Jews to "occupying Zionist aggressors" in an attempt to soften its image?

"The (2017) document gives us a chance to connect with the outside world," in the words of Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum.

Are you also aware that Hamas never formally repudiated the original 1988 charter?

Did you look at the examples I posted above of Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad saying in 2018 that Palestine should be healed of its cancer – the Jews

Also in 2018, Yahya Sinwar declaring that* *Israel “will never get anything but guns, fire, martyrdom, death, and killing” from Gaza.

Then there was the Hamas MP Marwan Abu Ras who explained about Jews that, “everything people say about massacres and Holocaust – these are all lies. Hitler may have hated them, but it was because of their deeds and crimes.”

In 2019 we say Hamas Political Bureau member Fathi Hammad implored “you seven million Palestinians abroad, enough warming up! There are Jews everywhere! We must attack every Jew on planet Earth – we must slaughter and kill them, with Allah’s help.” He instructed, “[w]e will die while exploding and cutting the necks and legs of the Jews. We will lacerate them and tear them to pieces, Allah willing!”

On May 7, 2021, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, senior Hamas official Fathi Hammad called for Palestinians in Jerusalem to “cut off the heads of the Jews.”

Can you @PinkBobby in all sincerity tell me that Hamas have really changed from their original charter with its quest to annihilate Israel by killing Jews?

Oh, so this is quite lengthy so I'm going to divide it into two posts, in the same way as Twiglet did - looking first at their policies, and then at what they say!

So this is the original charter
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/21st_century/hamas.asp

It's pretty damn unpleasant, violent, and exactly what people think of when they think of Hamas. It's extremist ranting. It's certainly anti-Semitic, and makes no attempt to seperate out Israeli's that are Jews, and the wider Jewish world. It's also contradictory, stating in article 31 that "Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other".

The new charter is very different. I'm not naive and I know it's likely a PR exercise to try and make them seem more palatable, but it also is a more recent written policy, so should be taken as such. Anyway, here it is

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/hamas-2017-document-of-general-principles-and-policies

Relevent paragraphs when looking at their policies towards Jews in general are:

16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.

On the face of the document, it's a lot more peaceful, mentioning human rights, importance of non discrimination, plan for democratic elections etc. Frankly it doesn't fit with how many of the leaders act, but their official policies certainly don't suggest killing all Jews, or anything of the sort.

I think it's obvious from their behaviour on 7/10, that the more peaceful, conciliatory language should be taken with a bucket full of salt.

They were deeply unpleasant, and remain deeply unpleasant - albeit now couched in less offensive language. But they've never as their official policy in their constitutions says that wanted to kill all Jews. Their more recent one, the opposite.

Now for what they say...

@Alittlefeedbackwouldbenice I'm glad to see that you acknowledge that version 2 was very likely a PR exercise to try and make them seem more palatable. Yes it is a more recent written policy than version 1. However, seeing as version 1 has never been repudiated by Hamas, I think it's fair to say they are both relevant when considering Hamas goals.

As you also acknowledge, the more sanitised version 2 in no way fits with comments made by Hamas leaders - publicly! - since the second version was written. Comments in which they specifically call for Jews to be killed in various gruesome ways like the "cancer" the Hamas Interior Minister believed them to be. Not just in Israel but "every Jew on planet Earth" according to Hamas Political Bureau member Fathi Hammad.

Then we have the evidence of 7/10 itself - a massacre of Israeli citizens, mainly Jews.

Ok, so I'll take them in turn. In summary though, I agree that some of these quotes amount to Hamas officials proposing killing all Jews. Most do not though (though many are unpleasant and still incitement to murder), and the comments that I agree with you on, whether they represent actual policy positions, rather then an individuals view, is unclear.

If we take the view that a comment made by a government/organisation official represents the view of the government, then I have an equally long list to pass back off Israeli government ministers comments, successions of nuking Palestinians, starving them all to death etc.

Frankly they both spout some pretty horrible murderous rhetoric. Only Israel can (and us) making good on it though. I'd rather neither did.

1. On May 11, 2011, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas official and cleric Yunis Al-Astal explained, “[t]he [Jews] are brought in droves to Palestine so that the Palestinians – and the Islamic nation behind them – will have the honor of annihilating the evil of this gang,” promising, “[i]n just a few years, all the Zionists and the settlers will realize that their arrival in Palestine was for the purpose of the great massacre, by means of which Allah wants to relieve humanity of their evil.”

Yep, that's a pretty horrible thing to say, deeply unpleasant, inviting violence and murder. Clearly relates to Jewish people coming as Zionists and sellers, makes no mention of the wider world. Unpleasant, but does not mean Hamas have a policy of wanting all Jews worldwide dead.

2. On August 20, 2012, in a sermon broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas official Sheik Ahmad Bahr prayed, “Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.”

Unpleasant and murderous. This does fit with your view they want all Jews dead, but whether the views of this individual comprise official policy is another matter.

3. On March 2, 2014, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas cleric Wael Al-Zard noted that “[t]he Palestinian woman . . . . is no longer satisfied merely with equipping her sons for Jihad,” but that now “[s]he equips herself, prepares herself, trains herself, and takes up arms herself.”

This says nothing about killing Jews. It's irrelevant to this discussion.

4. On March 23, 2014, at a “Perseverance and Loyalty to the Martyr’s Path” rally, broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Ismail Haniyah, head of Hamas’s political bureau, proclaimed that “[w]e are a people that yearn for death, just as our enemies yearn for life,” and Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad promised that Hamas would destroy Israel within a few years.

The Hamas will destroy Israel bit is clearly threatening Israel, but irrelevant for a discussion on whether Hamas have a policy of wanting to kill all Jews worldwide.

5. On January 29, 2016, Haniyah explained, “East of the city of Gaza, there are heroes underground, digging through rocks and building tunnels. West of Gaza, there are heroes testing rockets every day. This is all in preparation – in tunnels underground, by means of missiles in the air, as well as in the sea, and everywhere. This constant preparation is for the sake of Palestine, Jerusalem, Al-Aqsa, and for the sake of the Jerusalem Intifada.”

Unpleasant again, but irrelevant for a discussion on whether Hamas have a policy of wanting to kill all Jews worldwide.

6. On July 12, 2018, at a rally broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamad predicted “the cleansing of Palestine of the filth of the Jews, and their uprooting from it, Allah willing” and “the establishment of the Caliphate, after the nation has been healed of its cancer – the Jews – Allah willing.”

Unpleasant again, and clearly genocidal towards Israeli Jews, but irrelevant for a discussion on whether Hamas have a policy of wanting to kill all Jews worldwide (as opposed to just in Israel).

7. On November 16, 2018, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar declared that Israel “will never get anything but guns, fire, martyrdom, death, and killing” from Gaza.

Unpleasant again, but irrelevant for a discussion on whether Hamas have a policy of wanting to kill all Jews worldwide.

8. On July 22, 2018, during a speech broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Gaza Shari’a appeals court judge Sheikh Omar Nofal praised the six virtues of martyrdom, calling it an “individual duty incumbent upon the entire nation,” and asking “[h]ow can anyone cling to this world after hearing all of these great rewards?”

Sad that they are glorifying death in this way again, and morally bankrupt to try to persuade people to martyr themselves, but irrelevant for a discussion on whether Hamas have a policy of wanting to kill all Jews worldwide.

9. On June 23, 2019, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas MP Marwan Abu Ras explained about Jews that, “everything people say about massacres and Holocaust – these are all lies. Hitler may have hated them, but it was because of their deeds and crimes.”

I hate Holocaust denial, and to blame them for the Holocaust is disgusting. It however sheds no light on whether Hamas have a policy of wanting to kill all Jews worldwide.

10. On July 12, 2019, at a March of Return rally that aired on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas Political Bureau member Fathi Hammad implored “you seven million Palestinians abroad, enough warming up! There are Jews everywhere! We must attack every Jew on planet Earth – we must slaughter and kill them, with Allah’s help.” He instructed, “[w]e will die while exploding and cutting the necks and legs of the Jews. We will lacerate them and tear them to pieces, Allah willing!”

There's absolutely no denying or defending this, or it's clear intention to incite the murder of Jews. Deplorable. Wherever this individuals comments represent Hamas policy is another matter.

11. On May 7, 2021, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, senior Hamas official Fathi Hammad called for Palestinians in Jerusalem to “cut off the heads of the Jews.”

Technically this is a 'call' for Palestinians in Jerusalem, we cannot infer it's a call re Jews worldwide, and again we don't know how much this represents policy. However it's pretty disgusting and a clear incident to murder.

12. On December 12, 2022, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, head of the Hamas Women’s Movement Rajaa Al-Halabi explained that a girl who sets out to be a “martyrdom-seeker” has “only one thing on her mind – to meet her Lord by means of her blood and her body parts,” noting that kindergarten teachers raise children to love Jihad.

Again sad that they are glorifying death in this way again, and morally bankrupt to try to persuade people to martyr themselves, but irrelevant for a discussion on whether Hamas have a policy of wanting to kill all Jews worldwide.

13. On April 8, 2022, on a broadcast on Hamas’s Al-Aqsa TV, Hamas official Talal Nassar opined, “I believe that the occupation is heading towards annihilation, and on this platform, I swear by Allah, and let everybody remember this pledge: Those of us who will still be alive will tread with their pure feet… After we trample with our feet all over the skulls of the Zionists, we will tread on the land of Haifa, Jaffa, Tiberias, Jerusalem, and all of the West Bank and our dear [Gaza] Strip. There is no difference between the [borders of] 1967 and 1948.”

Unpleasant again, and clearly genocidal towards Israeli Jews, but irrelevant for a discussion on whether Hamas have a policy of wanting to kill all Jews worldwide (as opposed to just in Israel).

I will reply to you tomorrow @Alittlefeedbackwouldbenice

I've heard it all now- not all Hamas are evil. Not all of them are antisemitic but want to avenge for years of oppression. My goodness, the shocking lack of basic history of the region is staggering. Then you have got people still saying what Israel is doing is "disproportionate to 7/10. I think you would call that dehumanising Israelis. Further, another clue about how antisemitism is briefly acknowledged, before moving on. All so bloody predictable. Look back centuries to see that Jews and christians were treated like dogs by arabs. But of course its all Israel's fault for wanting to live in peace.

I am aware of the two first statements - as I said, I’m not bringing up the ‘17 charter like it suddenly transforms Hamas from a terrorist organisation into the ‘good guy’. But I think it’s important to take it all into account when trying to understand Hamas and extremism more broadly. Both documents tell us something about members of Hamas and the latter could suggest there are, or were, more moderate factions within the group that attempted some sort of progress. Clearly, the extremists won because moderates don’t commit atrocities like 7/10 but if we want to avoid it happening again, it’s important to look at all the info. Perhaps it was all just a PR stunt to bring Israel to the negotiating table (which failed) or perhaps a failed attempt towards less extremism. I think history books again may show us the full picture of Hamas leadership and how it evolved from pre election to now.

Re the quotes, I don’t need to see those to know there is extremism within Hamas. As discussed before, they are terrorists. Similar quotes can be picked by members of the current Israeli government re Gaza. We’ve agreed before that we need less extremism on both sides. Extremism has won and that’s why we’re watching so much death and destruction.

Like I said, I’m not here to pretend Hamas are innocent or misunderstood or shouldn’t be gotten rid of. That would be absurd. But the reason they exist and the various versions/factions within Hamas that are all part of working out how to stop things like 7/10 and the following conflict from happening again.