Israeli security cabinet expected to approve Gaza takeover plan

[Twiglets1]

Sky News report that Israel is expected to approve Benjamin Netanyahu's plan for a takeover of Gaza when the security cabinet meets later today.

According to the Times of Israel, the full cabinet is due to convene at 6pm local time, 4pm in the UK.

Israeli media are reporting that the plan could potentially span over five months, and it is likely to be aimed at destroying Hamas and pressuring it to free remaining hostages.

While some ministers have been critical of the plan, reports suggest Netanyahu is likely to secure a majority of support.

https://news.sky.com/story/gaza-latest-hostages-famine-aid-hamas-idf-war-palestine-state-live-13398805

Would you say that Hamas would be justified in killing an Israeli journalist who acts as a mouthpiece for the Israeli military?

Israel has been clear in its intention to make Gaza unliveable for Palestinians, and its follow through of the settler colonial model these past 80 years makes it very difficult to ignore the stated intent of the Israeli political and military leadership.

If actively promoting Hamas is grounds for killing, why is actively promoting the Israeli government not grounds for killing?

It's a moot point whether Hamas would be justified or not, they would obviously just do it with no shits given re the Geneva Convention or anything else. Don't you think?

I believe anyone actively associated with the Israeli government or IDF very much is grounds for killing according to Hamas. In fact killing being a Jew is good enough grounds for them.

But is it good enough for you, that’s the question.

It appears to me that you believe that active promotion of Hamas is an acceptable grounds to kill a person? Would you mind clarifying if I’m right about that or not.

Indeed - I assume as it says ‘heard’ (rather than seen) it means it’s in his reporting rather than something posted on SM. I’ll see what I can find.

Don't worry - I don’t immediately believe it though and I’m not saying it’s some sort of definitive proof he’s not Hamas - in a way, coordinated criticism of Hamas would make him a much stronger asset as he would be seen as more trustworthy/unbiased. But reading something like that on the BBC makes me think there’s likely some evidence they’ve seen. As I said, I’ll share anything I can find. The truth is more important to me than proving a point/narrative!

Re joining Hamas to get ahead in life, I think it’s a hard dynamic to understand when you’re not living that life. I wonder how normalised it is to work for a Hamas-run org when they’re your government and in control of a lot of day to day life - people need jobs and to provide for their families. I’m going to look into it but if hospital staff are paid in part by the state (Hamas), for example, does that make them terrorist on the Hamas payroll? I don’t think it automatically does.

For a lot of people, they’ve always been there and there’s no alternative - I assume many choose to get on with life, get a job and keep their head down. It’s easy to judge when you have options but I think Palestinians lack real choice and shouldn’t necessarily be handed a death sentence for working for Hamas in non combat or military roles. Like I said, it’s less black and white than other terrorist orgs because they are the ‘state’ - I fully understand there are a lot of terrible people in Hamas who have done or planned or facilitated terrible acts but I don’t think a link to Hamas when you’re living in Palestine makes you a terrorist.

@Cinnyris It's more nuanced than that ... it requires a case by case examination. I don't think passively supporting Hamas would be acceptable grounds to kill a person because they may not have had much actual choice in the matter. And in any case, thoughts don't kill people so I don't think any Gazans should be punished just for what they think about Hamas.

But if you look at the things this particular journalist has (allegedly) done:

Al Sharif posted on his own Telegram on Oct 7th 2023 late afternoon:
"9 hours and the heroes are still roaming the country killing and capturing...God, God, how great you are" with three green heart emojis.
The BBC reported that he worked for a Hamas media team in Gaza before the current conflict.
Hamas documents show that he was recruited by them in 2013, and served as commander of a rocket launching squad. According to these same documents, he was also listed on Hamas' payroll for an injury he has sustained in training.
Then there are the photographs of him from 2021, posing with the highest level of Hamas leadership, Khalil al-Hayya, Yahya Sinwar, and Nizar Awadallah.

If you look at all those things then it seems likely that he had an active role within Hamas propaganda so personally, I don't have a problem (morally) with the IDF targeting & killing him - assuming they are true. The IDF identified him as a big threat as a support person for Hamas, so they felt the evidence was strong enough and they presumably saw it in the original form.

I appreciate what you say about the targeting of Al Sharif potentially not being lawful, but I don't think this is a clearcut case. Which is why I am in support of the independent investigation the UN are calling for. If the investigation finds no proof that he was a support person for Hamas then Israel will presumably be found guilty of a war crime and I will have to admit that I was wrong in my assumptions about him.

The truth is important to me too which is why if people are going to keep saying show us the evidence or does that evidence really exist, they then need to show pretty good evidence themselves when making points.

It seemed a strange way of putting it to say people join Hamas to get on in life. Like an alternative Trainspotting, "Choose Hamas/Choose Life."

I'm being facetious but in reality I do understand that if I lived in Gaza I would probably be working for the Hamas government or health ministry or something. This is one reason I said to @Cinnyris above that "I don't think passively supporting Hamas would be acceptable grounds to kill a person because they may not have had much actual choice in the matter".

Also as I said above, thoughts don't kill people. So the Gazan people can view the IDF as negatively as they want, in my eyes. But if they take on a military role in a war (or become a support person for Hamas to help them achieve their goal of killing Jews) then that changes things.

Then you would find it acceptable for Hamas to kill, say, Eylon Levy?

I don't know much about him. What has he done that make him seem possibly worthy of being killed?

Has he served as the commander of a rocket launching squad in the past?

Is he on the payroll of a proscribed terrorist organisation?

A quick glance at his Wikipedia page suggests he has said some controversial things but no, that wouldn't make it acceptable for Hamas to kill him. They would though if they got the chance!

Its not so much the maths, as the principle....

If Israeli leaders say they're going to avenge each Israeli with the lives 10 Palestinians (and some of their politicians did in the immediate heat of the aftermath of Oct 7th)

And Hamas come back and say each Palestinian is worth 10 Israelis...

... That's an exponential rate of escalation, it doesnt take long before there's nobody left. It's also why proportionality in response is important.

What Hamas did on oct 7th, and have been doing for decades is abhorent, but what the israelis respond with time and again levelling cities and settlements and any civilians in the way is frequently excessive and disproporionate.

I understand. My push for evidence is particularly pointed at people who have made it clear that they disregard or mistrust info fed to us by MSM and/or the U.N., charities, drs from Gaza. If they’re not ‘listening’ to them, I’m really keen to know who they are listening to and I won’t accept a few SM commentators as equal to the body of evidence listed above. It’s fine to have a different perspective but I think you need really strong evidence if you’re going to disregard so much ‘mainstream’ evidence.

I appreciate the Trainspotting ref and apologies for crossing points again! It sounds like we’re in agreement re the position you have with Hamas is the key. I guess time will tell how many of the journalists killed were actual threats vs passively involved.

It's lovely that you think that it'll be investigated and the people will be punished if they're found to be guilty, but I think that's a bit naive. Okay a lot naive.

Think of the recent guy in the West Bank, whose murder was literally caught on video and you can see that a settler, who is well known for violence, shot him. Israel's action, three days house arrest followed by release. No further action.

So take the situation in more general with the settlers. 90-94% of investigations into settler violence are closed without an indictment. 3-6% of Investigations result in a conviction. When convicted they often receive very lenient sentences.

In contrast Palestinians tried by the Israeli military courts, which have jurisdiction over most of the West Bank have a conviction rate of 96% to 99% depending on year. Sentences tend to be harsher. Obviously this is if they are sent for trial, given the thousands are kept in 'administrative detention' for unspecified lengths of times with no charge whatsoever, no judicial oversight. No lawyers.

Given this, how can you have faith Israel will bring anyone to justice for crimes relating to the war?

I'll be frank here and say based on previous conversations we have had, I don't care what your opinions are regarding my naiveté.

It's the U.N. Secretary-General António Guterres who has called for an independent investigation not Twiglets from Mumsnet. So if you think he's being naïve in seeking the truth, take it up with him.

This is all a bit academic.
Any Israeli is a target to Hamas. Man, woman, child. Just being a Jew is enough to warrant being murdered.

And deflect rather than answering the substance of my question.

I mean it sounds suspiciously like you are grappling round for an excuse here, because know that Israel won't investigate, and if they do it would be about as unbiased as Bernard Matthews investigating turkey cruelty.

True. I've never known someone so interested in who I would or wouldn't agree should get killed. I feel like a mafia boss or The Godmother.

IDF insists slain journalist was Hamas member but evidence 'classified'

A spokesperson for the Israel Defence Forces has told Sky News that Al Jazeera journalist Anas al-Sharif is "not this angel people are speaking about", doubling down on allegations the slain reporter was a Hamas fighter.

The Israeli military claims that Al-Sharif, who was killed alongside five other journalists in Gaza City on Sunday, was a member of Hamas's military wing and received a salary from the group.

The only evidence Israel has released is screenshots of spreadsheets it says were found in Gaza apparently listing Hamas operatives and containing Al-Sharif's name.

Al Jazeera denies the claims made against Al-Sharif, as did the correspondent while he was alive. The International Committee of Journalists has also refuted the allegations. The Committee to Protect Journalists in July warned Al-Sharif could be assassinated.

Speaking to presenter Jayne Secker, IDF spokesperson Nadav Shoshani insisted Al-Sharif was part of Hamas but said supporting evidence was classified.

"There are more complex, more delicate intelligence that we have to treat very carefully because intelligence that you declassify, if you don't do it in a careful manner, you can't use it the next time," he said.

Shoshani suggested revealing some types of classified evidence could put Israeli sources in harm's way and was "a very long, complex" process.

"If you don't believe it, it's okay, but do your job and present it - this is a person who celebrated the death of civilians," he claimed.

news.sky.com/story/gaza-latest-hostages-famine-aid-hamas-idf-war-palestine-state-live-13398805

Obviously Shoshani will say that.
He really has to at this point.

I would expect nothing less.

I have seen some of the footage of the aftermath of Israel's current attack on Gaza city. It really is heartbreaking to see blood soaked streets and screaming children.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clyj0dd0qj9o

On Tuesday members of an international group of former leaders known as "The Elders" for the first time called the war in Gaza an "unfolding genocide" and blamed Israel for causing famine among its population.

This is from the article - I don't really know much about 'The Elders'.

The full statement from The Elders website.

https://theelders.org/news/elders-call-decisive-measures-states-halt-unfolding-genocide-and-famine-gaza

I posted the statement below as it also references the murder of Anas Al Sharif which is being discussed.

"Today we express our shock and outrage at Israel’s deliberate obstruction of the entry of life-saving humanitarian aid into Gaza, causing mass starvation to spread. The targeted killing of journalist Anas al-Sharif and four of his colleagues in Gaza is an attempt to silence the truth. Truth matters.

What we saw and heard underlines our personal conviction that there is not only an unfolding, human-caused famine in Gaza. There is an unfolding genocide.

We saw evidence of food and medical aid denied entry, and heard witness accounts of the killing of Palestinian civilians, including children, while trying to access aid inside Gaza. The deliberate destruction of health facilities in Gaza means children facing acute malnutrition cannot be treated effectively. At least 36 children starved to death just in the month of July.

No shelter materials have entered Gaza since March this year, and we saw huge numbers of tents ready for delivery but blocked by the Israeli authorities. This leaves families already displaced multiple times without protection. 96% of households face water insecurity.

Israel must open all border crossings into Gaza, including at Rafah, immediately. we express our shock and outrage at Israel’s deliberate obstruction of the entry of life-saving humanitarian aid into Gaza, causing mass starvation to spread. The targeted killing of journalist Anas al-Sharif and four of his colleagues in Gaza is an attempt to silence the truth. Truth matters.
What we saw and heard underlines our personal conviction that there is not only an unfolding, human-caused famine in Gaza. There is an unfolding genocide.
We saw evidence of food and medical aid denied entry, and heard witness accounts of the killing of Palestinian civilians, including children, while trying to access aid inside Gaza. The deliberate destruction of health facilities in Gaza means children facing acute malnutrition cannot be treated effectively. At least 36 children starved to death just in the month of July.
No shelter materials have entered Gaza since March this year, and we saw huge numbers of tents ready for delivery but blocked by the Israeli authorities. This leaves families already displaced multiple times without protection. 96% of households face water insecurity.
Israel must open all border crossings into Gaza, including at Rafah, immediately.

It also highlights how no shelter materials have entered since March. Now that Gaza city is under attack and even tents are scarce because Israel have blocked their entry - where do the citizens flee to?

I'd say that's a two way street to be honest the IDF target anyone in Gaza in fact they don't even have to be Palestinian as aid workers, doctors etc are seen to be legitimate targets to them purely because they are there helping, they even shot their own hostages that were waving a white flag, a little bit trigger happy aren't they?

I think there’s a difference.

I don’t disagree some members of the IDF are a bit trigger happy and have been responsible for deaths they later described as mistakes.

Hamas though has a policy of wanting to kill all Jews even outside of wartime chaos. Which is why they started this conflict in the first place - attacking a country’s civilians when they were not even at war with Israel at the time.

Did anyone see Netanyahu talking about why foreign journalists are going to see a lot of destruction in Gaza?

Hamas booby trapped nearly every building, nearly every road..

It’s beyond ridiculous. He is taking the world to be fools. And the US standing firmly with these lies. You’d laugh if it wasn’t so desperately horrific.