Anti-semitism in the UK

[Lolapusht]

Published yesterday I believe.

Evidence of anti-Semitism in the UK

Not sure if that link will work so…

https://x.com/nicolelampert/status/1944147294917439912?s=61&t=_cKTNp_TyAyzDViEOCJDFQ

@JoyDivision79 are you on X? Lots of great accounts there that show ‘the other side’. One account to look at is Imshin. She has been posting since 2018 and posts videos from Gazans. It shows the side of Gaza created for domestic consumption ie the (pre-7 Oct) luxury car dealerships, restaurants, villas, phone shops, the gold district, bridal stores, builders, de-salination contractors. That gives you a good idea of what things used to be like. Watch those a few of those videos (especially the older ones) and then match that up to the open-air prison/concentration narrative. Andrew Fox is another person to follow as he is ex-army and very knowledgeable on that side of things. There’s also a few OSINT accounts that I follow who provide current insights into what’s going on.

Israel is not starving Gaza.

Life in Gaza is horrendous and there is a shortage of food, especially in the last few months but there is food and always has been. There are STILL cafes & restaurants producing Nutella soaked goodies and the free aid that people brave Hamas to go collect isn’t always taken. People take the things that get good prices and leave the rest on the ground. Sugar and cooking oil are expensive so those get taken from the boxes. Gazan society is profoundly unfair, but not because of Israel. If you’re connected to Hamas you get the Nutella crepes, if you’re not connected you run the risk of being kneecapped for taking free aid before they get their hands on it and try to sell it to you. There was a clip going around recently of Hamas fighters dressed as civilians firing RPGs at the IDF from a UN warehouse while hiding behind stacks of aid. This was within the last few months when the people really needed the aid but they couldn’t get it because Hamas.

Those saying that the majority of people killed are women and children, what are you basing that information on? If it’s MoH figures, according to them not a single Hamas fighter has been killed. The number of fighting age men killed is completely disproportionate to the pre-7 Oct population breakdown. How does that work? Civilians are not being targeted, they are very tragic victims of war. Hamas controls where the population goes. They spread misinformation and threats to keep people where they need them. Throughout the war, Israel has told the population where they will be operating through leaflets, physically calling people 7 i think there may also be an app. I know there will be some of you who will just put that down to another apartheid tactic of the genociders and I have nothing that will change your mind about that, but if Israel had wanted to wipe out the entire population of Gaza they could have done that within a week. It would be interesting to hear why the doubters think Israel didn’t do that.

I'm Jewish and I disagree. The vast majority of people are at protests because what Israel is doing is wrong, profoundly wrong, and are being aided and abetted by our government in doing so. So it being a Jewish state is not the only reason people are picking up on Israel specifically. Israel is an ally, unlike Russia, or China, for example.

I think a big majority people understand that British Jews are not to blame for policies of the Israeli government. It's definitely the case that too often antisemitism is not taken seriously enough when it happens, but it doesn't help when people, usually non-Jewish right-wing populists, disingenuously use 'antisemitism' as an exuse to quash protest at Israel's abominable actions. They only care about Jews when they think they can use us as a cosh against political opponents.

Fear doesn’t justify war crimes. Bombing hospitals, starving civilians, and targeting entire neighborhoods are all violations of international law. Tens of thousands of Palestinians have been killed. That’s not self-defence, it’s collective punishment.

In Syria, Russia was condemned for striking hospitals. In Bosnia, Serb forces were prosecuted for targeting civilians. In Yemen, the Saudi-led blockade was called a war crime for causing famine. What’s happening in Gaza is no different in scale or brutality.

You can condemn Hamas without excusing actions that meet every definition of a war crime. Justice doesn't stop being justice when it's your side doing the killing.

I didn’t dispute the Israeli deaths?

To flat out deny that so many Palestinians have suffered the same fate is truly abhorrent.

I’m not Jewish but I disagree with you. Right from the beginning the protests refused to mention the hostages or to condemn Hamas . The only criticism expressed was of Israel - and this was in the immediate aftermath of October 7th.
I would have joined the protest if I could have seen signs saying “ Hamas must Release All the Hostages unconditionally to stop further bloodshed. The lives of Israeli children and Palestinian children matter”

Right wing populists ? Makes it sound like a political point scoring exercise to want people to live without fear in their home country, (the UK in case you wonder).
Peaceful protest is one thing, demonising Israel, Israelis and by extension Jews in the UK is quite another. Wouldn't it be nice to call for release of hostages rather than globalise the intifada? To see hamas, hezbollah and houthis criticised rather than feted? Are you suggesting this is a right wing view?

@Echobelly it gets messy when we don't fully understand why our Government does things. Lining pockets is usually the underlying reason I believe. Caring about people is never a reason Governments do anything imo. So making money is a plausible reason as to why the West would supply arms to Israel. Beyond this, in terms of any intent, I don't know enough.

I want to see much more information and evidence on what is happening to the people on the ground tbh. The problem ref accessing any impartial reliable sources comes up again for me. What is not doctored for example.

I'm not on X as I do struggle with the bombardment of so much in my face and not knowing what's reliable. I will start to look now.

Personally, I am not right wing. I call myself a floater.

I do believe people in the public eye will jump on the Anti Semitism aspect to meet their own agenda.

I appreciate this is too simplistic. Which group do I feel significantly more comfortable with and safer alongside me? It won't ever change for me how I feel on that. The answer is probably obvious.

The downfall of the 1 geographic location that is for Jewish people, surrounded by Islamic states. What would that then lead to. I don't know the full answer but I believe it could be quite significant.

I'm an Atheist.

In light of Oct 7th, it is beyond my full understanding as to how war crimes should be addressed and the role of Western Governments in bringing anyone to account.

I watched a 4 part documentary on Assad's regime. That made my eyes water. I still come back to thinking, well what about this? !

I have been on one of the protests and have seen such banners, they're not forbidden or disrespected.

I actually get tired of this insistence on having to refer to October 7/Hostages every time one critiques Israel, especially within the Jewish community. Good God, it should go without saying one wishes the hostages home and that October 7 was vile, I find it insulting to be asked to say that before I can even critique Israel, especially when it's among fellow Jews.

If people feel as though October 7th and the hostages have been forgotten, Netanyahu has ensured that. What Israel has done has actually managed to eclipse even that horror. And made Jews everywhere less safe - not because of protests, but by making us more likely to be targets or maniacs and extremists who decide we're the nearest available equivalent to Israel. That is still thankfully relatively rare, but not rare enough.

“I actually get tired of this insistence on having to refer to October 7/Hostages every time one critiques Israel, especially within the Jewish community”

Ive witnessed numerous marches in London and never seen a poster that referenced the hostages even once.
Where did your protest March take place?

London, spring of 2024. Tbf, there may be fewer since then as the distance from October 7th gets further and, to be fair, these are marches about Gaza, not the hostages.

There are events about hostages, and they should not be subject to harrassment (as sometimes they sadly are) so there are forums for this.

Sad to say I think for most people they have become a secondary issue because of the scale of slaughter is simply so disproportionate. This is one of the best funded and most technologically advanced armies in the world against a people that do not even have a formal army. Much to my regret and anger, I honestly can't blame most people for feeling more sympathy for Palestinians than Israelis. It is worrying that I think it's easy for uninformed people to stay treating Hamas as folk heroes, which they are definitely not either.

Both peoples deserve so much better from their leadership

If this was about Israel there would be no rise in attacks on Jewish people outside Israel.

Sorry but this is nonsense. Attacks on a foreign nationality within the UK are directly linked to what their country is or is not doing. A glance at history would give you numerous examples. Even nationalities associated with a particular dominant religion- ie Irish, Spanish and French catholics, Asian Muslims etc.

So it is like observing the underdog and the massively disadvantaged in a way.

That part I can understand. It's not a fair battle so to speak from the perspective you've presented.

If the West completely pulled away entirely, I don't know what would happen. I think about Russia and Ukraine. Do I want that regime dominating the other one. No way.

This situation feels different because whereas Ukraine is the underdog in size and capability, Israel and the IDF is not seen as the underdog.

If we consider it a conflict based in religion, why aren't all the other Islamic and exceptionally wealthy people from neighbouring Islamic states actively taking these people in as a statement and stand against all this.

But if you are a British Jew then why does what Netanyahu et al has done mean you feel less safe here? Why is the anti-Semitism of the UK population Netanyahu’s fault?

This is surely an example of people conflating Jews and Israel which is kind of the point of the thread? All of those people saying it’s possible to criticise Israel without being anti-Semitic are clearly wrong as you have just said that Israel’s actions have made Jews everywhere less safe.

“ To be fair, these are marches about Gaza, not the hostages.”
Hmm - there is a link between Hamas/ the hostages and the bombing of Gaza…
And I also think that Hamas’ refusal to release the hostages unconditionally put the lives of innocent Palestinians at risk .

Yugoslavia

loads of countries that used to exist no longer exist.

“…why aren't all the other Islamic and exceptionally wealthy people from neighbouring Islamic states actively taking these people in as a statement and stand against all this...” because they’ve got previous experience of taking Palestinians in so knows what happens. Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt.

If you want to know how Palestinians are treated by their Arab neighbours have a look at the massacres of Palestinians on Syria.

No, that is not true. Israel was bombing Gaza in retaliation by 10am local time on Oct 7th, 2023, which is 8am British time. It is chronologically impossible for protests to have started before 8 am on Oct 7th 2023.

Are you saying that all Jewish people are Israelis, because that’s how your post reads?

And Lebanon the last time Israel invaded.

No I am not saying all Israelis are Jewish or even all Jews are Israelis.

I am Jewish myself and we have always been the most attacked for religious hate crime. The rise in anti-semitism is directly related to the Israeli government’s actions over the past two years because it is a Jewish state.

During WWII- over 70,000 civilians in the UK of German & Austrian nationality or recent immigrant ancestry (ie German mother) were rounded up and put in internment camps because we viewed them as allies of the enemy.

The USA did the same with Germans and Japanese,

Hate crimes against people of that nationality or suspected of it also skyrocketed.

Noone is saying its not linked. Obviously its linked. The racists kindly daub the word 'gaza' or pull down posters of hostages. But The Israeli government has not forced people to become racists. They were already racist, just looking for a cause and an outlet.

Ok, I read this as saying there was no link
If this was about Israel there would be no rise in attacks on Jewish people outside Israel.

Obviously there is a link between the increase and the war.
I agree there are opportunistic bigots appropriating the war as an excuse to harm Jewish people, and vandalise Jewish businesses, synagogues, and schools.

Two points/questions for the OP

1. Do you support what the State of Israel is doing in Gaza and the violence against Palestinians by settlers on the West Bank?
2. It would be fair I think to say that many organisations and individuals have become very good at muddying the waters so any criticism of the State of Israel and/or Zionism is construed as antisemitic. Do you believe that genuine criticism of the actions of the State of Israel are anti semitic or not?

One of them is arming the jihadist groups to cement their powerbase and there is a history of destabilisation of countries alongside that, so they are wary, though it has also been framed as resistance to ethnic cleansing, viewpoints vary. Sensible people know that jihadis make bad leaders and worse neighbours but some people romanticise the idea of an islamic caliphate because faith can be a lifebelt in a choppy world, hence the youngsters who ran away to join daesh a few years back.( Leading to an ordinary UK lad beheading another human with a knife).

For people who just want to live life and raise a family in peace it can be...challenging. the middle east is akin to the wild west compared to boring old Europe with pockets of stability and leadership/boundary disputes , I wouldn't take that analogy further but I'm sure others will.

Much tension is inflamed by discussion of western interference, but that again is flexible, many calls were made to intervene against Russia in Syria even after the lack of stability post Iraq & Afghanistan. The Shah was a western plant in Iran but western intervention in returning the ayatollah is downplayed

In other words - it's complicated and people are dying.

Yeah, if France had just invaded the UK and killed approximately 9,300 Brits I’d definitely want the government not to fire a single bullet in their direction. I’d probably also be out on the streets with a Vive la France banner while calling for the government to be proportionate…