Anti-semitism in the UK

[Lolapusht]

Published yesterday I believe.

Evidence of anti-Semitism in the UK

Not sure if that link will work so…

https://x.com/nicolelampert/status/1944147294917439912?s=61&t=_cKTNp_TyAyzDViEOCJDFQ

@EasyTouch quite.

They can somehow extend their support to the Houthis & Hezbollah but can’t come up with a chant to support the Druze. Bit lacking in moral decency I’d say. They love an anti-Israel genocide but can’t get out on the streets for an anti-Syria actual genocide.

Had a look on X and still no massive outcry at what’s happening in Syria. Seeming more like people are only concerned when they think Israel are the perpetrators.

If you’re going to be a peace activist, at least try and get peace for everyone not just a chosen few.

A long time ago, in 1975 or 76 a friend had a copy of the PLO statement. (The PLO were the Palestine Liberation Organisation and in my opinion Hamas and Hezbollah are the same as the PLO). My friend was Druze, lived in Israel and spoke Arabic and Hebrew. He translated several parts of the PLO document into Hebrew for me. They stated that they would not rest until every Jew had been pushed into the sea and then they would do the same to every Christian and others (I have to admit that the word he used for “others” was not one I knew but he said it included the Druze. It was clear that there was no geographical limit on this, but the PLO wanted to rule the whole world. I don’t think anyone, anywhere should be complacent in the current situation.

Nailed it.

The Druze a minority are being slaughtered but hey ho who cares on the Pro Pal lobby. More interested as using it as another way to batch Israel (for actually trying to help the minority Druze survive). Let's not pretend it's about the victims with Gaza, we are far far past that. No Jews so no Jews when it comes to any other problem in the middle east. Pure and simple hatred of a people.

There's a lot of useful turkeys out there.

PLO, Hamas, Hezbollah, The Houthis are no use to their own people and have very clear aims of genocide of other groups. We could all lay down and let them of course. Israel has decided to fight and not let them destroy them.

Are you even aware that you are essentially reproducing classical antisemitic "Jewish world domination plot" conspiracy theories but with Palestinians in the role of Jews? On a thread about antisemitism?

This somehow manages to be both structurally antisemitic and offensively anti-Palestinian all at once!

This is silly . The poster was talking about a PLO document ( a terrorist manifesto!)
It is not anti Palestinian to condemn terror groups

Edited to add - Would you consider condemnation of Isis to be anti- Muslim?

The fundamental problem isn't condemning actual terrorist actions - it's the fabricated content. The claims about the PLO document are demonstrably false. The PLO never published anything calling for pushing Jews into the sea, eliminating Christians, or world domination. I wasn't defending terrorism - I was pointing out that the post was spreading conspiracy theories that mirror antisemitic tropes.

The ISIS comparison misses the mark entirely. ISIS actually did publish manifestos calling for global conquest and targeting religious minorities - those are documented facts. But the post in question is attributing entirely fictional content to the PLO for which there is literally no evidence at all. It would be like claiming ISIS's manifesto said they wanted to colonise Mars and rule the solar system: condemning real ISIS actions is legitimate, but fabricating impossible claims undermines credible criticism.

My structural point stands. Taking a Middle Eastern political group and falsely attributing to them secret plans for world domination does echo the narrative structure of classic antisemitic conspiracy theories, regardless of one's intentions. The fact that it's directed at Palestinians doesn't make it less problematic - it's both factually wrong and rhetorically harmful.

There's a difference between legitimate criticism and misinformation. The PLO has engaged in militancy some of which may legitimately be called terrorism, and had maximalist positions that may legitimately be condemned by those who oppose them. But criticising actual documented actions and positions is very different from spreading fabricated conspiracy theories. The latter undermines legitimate criticism by mixing it with obvious falsehoods.
The core issue isn't being "anti-Palestinian" or "pro-terror" - it's demonstrable reality versus conspiracy theory.

This should not be a matter of opinion!

The fact that people would so willingly accept narratives that fuelled exterminatory European antisemitism as soon as they are about "this time: the right target" should be very alarming indeed to everyone!

“Taking a Middle Eastern political group and falsely attributing to them secret plans for world domination does echo the narrative structure of classic antisemitic conspiracy theories, regardless of one's intentions. “

I think it’s a massive stretch to say that the (hyperbolic) claims made by the Druze man about the threat he felt his community faced from the PLO are akin to classic antisemitic conspiracy theories .
I will accept that he may well have translated the PLO document with his own spin - but it is NOT the same as antisemitic conspiracy theories as the PLO did represent a genuine threat.

There isn't a trope about Palestinians controlling the world. It might not be true (I dunno) but there has never been persecution of Palestinians on this basis.

Yes - much more concise than my response 😆

I genuinely appreciate you acknowledging the claims were hyperbolic - hence my "thanks" reaction. 🙏

That's actually the key point! Regardless of anyone's views on the PLO (or any other group)'s actual actions or threats, we should be careful about reproducing narrative patterns that have historically been used to justify mass violence. The 'secret world domination plot' framework is dangerous precisely because it always feels justified to those using it - every group that's ever been targeted by this kind of conspiracy thinking was presented as a 'genuine threat' at the time and people genuinely did believe it. We can critique real actions and policies without falling into those particular rhetorical patterns that have such a toxic historical track record.

I used to take it all with a pinch of salt until 7 October, and now I find it frustrating that the ONLY interpretation on MN seems to be that Hamas are freedom fighters making a long-overdue point. I'm really concerned about the impact of this naivety on UK culture and particularly its impact on the small Jewish communtiy here.

To be honest, I don't think I've seen any posts defending Hamas. Most people in despair about the genocide in Gaza, also unequivocally condemn October 7th. Myself included. Though of course I haven't read every single post.
Antisemitism is obscene. Genocide of the Palestinians is obscene. I can hold a balanced view.

I agree that pro Palestinian people don’t tend to outright defend Hamas, though some do try to justify their actions. But neither do they criticise their actions except in passing - it’s never the main point of their posts. Compare that to the thousands of posts whose main point is to criticise Israel, most of them not even mentioning Hamas. If the pro Israel people didn’t keep mentioning 7/10, I doubt anyone else would ever refer to it.

I think that’s why some of us feel the need to remind people that the IDF are fighting for a reason, not because they wanted to wage war on Gaza. It’s to try to achieve some kind of balance on these threads rather than a relentless stream of posts purely criticising Israel. There are always at least 2 sides in a war.

I agree with you that the actions of the IDF have become disproportionate and that Israel & Hamas have to agree a ceasefire for the sake of the people of Gaza. I wish wholeheartedly that they would. I think Hamas have as much responsibility for not agreeing ceasefire terms as Israel.

Agree 💯

What is their reason for mass starvation?
In part the reason is because Hamas and criminal gangs have controlled resources and supplies .The chaos of war sadly means the strongest and most dangerous will ensure they have what they want leaving the most vulnerable and innocent ever weaker.

“whilst you murder and plunder and mass starve. “
Who are you referring to when you say “you”?

Why have you posted this on a thread about anti semetism in the UK?

This is the sense that I have. I'm not Jewish either. Yet, I feel ( and I know feelings are feelings)- I feel an undercurrent of directing people a particular way. Language used will be emotive. It is tiling people up in only one direction. I see no reflection anywhere in support of Jewish people, Israel or on reflection as to why we are here now. Oct 7th. Hamas.

I know horrible things are happening in Gaza. I walked into a shop yesterday and very quickly scanned front page headlines and it did not feel right to me. There was a Bob Geldof quote and I wanted to know with absolute certainty whether every single thing portrayed is happening in the manner the media is suggesting it is. I don't believe it is. It feels highly manipulative.

I understand that could sound very minimising. I think about Hamas and how they might directly themselves contribute to these deaths by crushing we hear about. It's incredibly manipulative what's happening here imo.

I totally accept any information and evidence stating that the IDF are committing war crimes. I still don't see this as a genocide. I will take a new ripped arsehole with any evidence provided to me graciously. I really appreciate I'm not there and naive to so much most likely.

@JoyDivision79 That's pretty much how I feel, too. I also think that many of Israel's actions are being judged as without any access to the military intelligence behind them, which they are hardly going to broadcast, particularly in light of the catastrophic failures of 7 Oct. They will be playing their cards very close to their chest in what is a much more difficult situation than anyone seems ready to acknowledge. For example, the apparent belief on MN that they can distribute supplies without being targeted by the "civilians" gathered to collect.

Russia is a christian country but noone confuses the actions of the russian government with random british christians.

Theres crazy amounts of antisemitism and its wrong.

I'm Jewish and I am worried about the rise in antisemitism. But I think that while individual people are responsible for their own actions, when it comes down to it the overall rise in antisemitism is in large part the Israeli governments fault. When Israel kills thousands of innocent children and other civillians, and when Israeli officials have spouted genocidal rhetoric about Palestinians, many people are going to be very angry with Israel, I know I am. And when many Israeli officials and supporters of Israel call any criticism of Israel and it's actions antisemitic, plenty of people are going to stop taking claims of antisemitism seriously, it's the boy who cried wolf. And some people are going to think, well, if that's antisemitism, maybe antisemitism isn't so bad after all. It's unfortunately going to encourage negative feelings towards Jewish people in general, because Israel and it's supporters keep doing everything they can to prevent any distinction being made between the current state of Israel and the Jewish people. 😢 Of course I'm not saying that makes antisemitism justifiable in any way.

@LuckyHare i agree with you. I think it is just the bad side of human nature as well. On social media I am looking at antisemitism now wondering why the response to hateful violence is just more hate. It’s depressing.

If you think the rise in antisemitism is due "in large part" to the Israeli government, who do you blame for the other part?

@LuckyHare I can't get my head around this at all. Someone who apparently previously had no animosity to Jews sees the war unfolding in response to 7 October. They get angry towards Israel and as a result think its ok to harass British Jewish school children in the UK? To yell at British Jewish people on the Tube, to cancel British Jewish artists, writers and comedians? To attack synagogues? I just dont buy this argument at all.