Trump offers hope for Gaza -let's hope Hamas accept?

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgkg4m0133po

Well it's up to Hamas now......let's see how much they value their people.

Crazy.

Its literally a thread about hope for a ceasefire and asking if Hamas should accept...

'Yes, of course Hamas should accept and fuck off forever '

I would have thought it'd be a very easy one to agree with.

I worry that it could lead to a more extreme group too.
I just hope hope hope that turns out not to be the case.

I agree. I really hope peace prevails.

Don't you see that if you keep people locked up in a tiny part of Gaza without adequate anything it doesn't matter about Hamas. A lot Palestinians will rightly hate Israel, there will be another Hamas, there will be more violence and bloodshed. Young men will grow up in this cage with vengeance in their souls. Treat people like caged animals and that's the energy you will get in return.

No we don't.

And the BBC article even says Israel has not agreed to the terms either.

This is just Trump spouting his usual nonsense. Hopefully in the background some serious negotiations are taking place to end the fighting.

Again - if Hamas will not surrender and stop fighting - what do you think will happen if Israel puts down arms?

there are STILL hostages being held.

you can’t just pretend that Hamas doesn’t exist in an analysis of this situation.

you also can’t ignore the way Hamas treats Gazans. Hamas are oppressors - AWFUL oppressors - why aren’t you calling for liberation from Hamas?

And what about the tens of thousands of innocent civilians that Israel has slaughtered in the last 18 months? Israel doesn’t get to claim to be the innocent party here - they have been occupying Gaza illegally for 20 years. They are the aggressor, not the victim.

• why aren’t you calling for liberation from Hamas?

Absolutely this. But are Hamas really in control in Gaza now? It looks to me that Israel are. They are controlling everything. Hamas and what they do will in my opinion not change the day to day reality of what is happening to Palestinians in Gaza now. Ceasefire and hostage release yes but Palestinians must be free from this control.

Jesus.

They haven't been occupying Gaza for 20 years. They pulled out in 2005. They forcibly pulled out every last Jew to leave Gaza to be run by Palestinians.

They are back in Gaza now because of October 7.

If October 7 hadn't have happened 57k Palestinians would still be alive.

Fit the facts into your narrative otherwise dont bother commenting.

Hamas have agreed to release the hostages in return for a permanent ceasefire and Israels withdrawal from the Gaza strip. In any ceasefire agreement there has to be some kind of trust. If they break it then you deal with it.

you also can’t ignore the way Hamas treats Gazans. Hamas are oppressors - AWFUL oppressors - why aren’t you calling for liberation from Hamas?

If Palestinians want to liberate themselves from Hamas then that's fantastic. What Israel are doing though isnt that. They aren't doing Palestinians any kind of favour. Keeping Palestinians trapped in a small area of Gaza, forcing them to queue for food from some shady for profit enterprise, forcing them to live in unsanitary overcrowded conditions without proper access to medical care is not some kind of liberation.

What Israel wants to do will not lead to lasting peace. Peace does not come from oppression, change does not come from oppression.

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has ruled that Israel's occupation of the Palestinian territories, including Gaza, is unlawful and that Israel must end its occupation. This ruling, delivered in an advisory opinion on July 19, 2024, stems from a request by the UN General Assembly to assess the legal consequences of Israel's policies and practices in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT). The ICJ emphasized that Israel's prolonged occupation, settlement activities, and actions in the OPT violate international law.

Tell the truth.

Agree. Hamas don't give a rat's arse about Palestinians anywhere, Gazans, or anyone else. They want what they want at whatever cost to any human life, and will never take responsibility for their tactics.

👏 👏

So October 7th was an entirely unprovoked attack, was it? Israel are just there minding their own business, and Hamas terrorists attack for no reason at all.

No, that’s not right is it? Israel have been occupying Palestine illegally for decades.

Tell me, if Israel are doing nothing wrong and simply “defending themselves”, why won’t they allow journalists into Gaza? If you’re being accused of committing genocide and you’re NOT doing that, you would let journalists in to report the truth because you have nothing to hide.

In years to come I can promise you will be ashamed that you ever supported this.

Absolutely . We will certainly reach a point where everyone was always against this.

Let’s hope it is a good ceasefire deal - one that will lead to an enduring peace. Unfortunately I fear it will not be. The Israeli government seem determined to remain in Gaza now and keep the Palestinians curtailed in a small area. It will take immense international pressure to get them to change path and we haven’t seen that pressure.

If there is a cease fire and it can be made to last, what then?

We haven't seen details of the proposal but obviously there must be a lot in it for Israel for it to agree.

One thing I think no will see is all the 'stop the genocide' folk instead of being pleased there is a stop to civilian casualties will quickly pivot to demanding Palestine is free from river to sea as I think ultimately that is the motivation for all their fervour, an abhorance of Israel as a state.

In fact I think pro Palestianian extremists will be a little disappointed if hostilities cease as they fear the world wide focus on Gaza will disappear and I have always believed it was a Hamas war aim to provoke global sympathy for Palestinians amongst the western population with a hope their relationship with Israel would fracture. (This hasn't happened incidently).

Also when the dust settles in pure military terms Islamist terror in the middle East has been given a devastating blow with Iran,Hamas and Hezbollah being defeated in some cases quite devastatingly. We also have seen the fall of the Syrian regime. There will be many leaders in the West quietly happy about this and a lot anti Israel people mourning the heavy defeats.

Don't worry I am sure the like of Owen Jones will somehow keep up the continuing genocide narrative of we do have a long awaited peace......

On 6 October the 2 sides were not fighting. There were no Jews in Gaza. There were increasing numbers of permits for Gazans to work in Israel.
On 7 October Hamas invaded Israel in the most heinous way- by targeting civilians. You tell me what the kids at that party did to provoke Hamas? You tell me what the peace workers did? You tell me what the people living on kibbutzes did? I'll tell you, if you can't admit it to yourself. They provoked Hamas by merely being Jewish in Israel.

You might ask me what all the innocent Palestinians did to provoke Israel. But the difference is Israel is targeting Hamas and killing civilians in the process.

It was interesting to hear on one of these threads that the US / UK saw 30 civilians dying as the upper limit to justify an attack on Iraqi figures. I wonder what Israels corresponding upper limit is? Is there even one? When the militants promise they will repeat 7 October again and again? I'm guessing they've calculated Hamas has to go at any cost to Palestinian life. Absolutely 100% brutal. But perhaps theyre thinking in terms of future Israeli citizen lives saved.

In contrast, those Palestinian civilians killed in the last few days in Israeli strikes targeting some Hamas member- every one of those people would still be alive if Hamas had surrendered 3 days ago. Its utterly pointless, needless death.

Unless of course, Hamas actually wants the death of its own. In which case continung this farce of a war becomes logical. The more Palestinian death, the more hatred of Israel they can drum up.

I can't think of a similar situation in history where the losers have suffered such a compressive loss, so much destruction and death- and still have not surrendered. They love death more than life.

When will Hamas surrender? Return the hostages, disband, go into exile, whatever? Whats the price theyre holding out for?

@NWL

"They didn’t even have any control over their own land - Israel controlled all movement in and out of Gaza. Hard to know how Palestinians are expected to rebuild themselves when Israel has put them in what can only be described as an open air prison."

Please have a look at a map of Gaza and see that Gaza also has a border with Egypt.

Prior to 7th October, Israel allowed much greater movement of Gazans to come to Israel to work and for health care than Egypt which had much tougher restrictions on Gazans crossing at Rafah.

So why do you incorrectly state that only Israel controlled all movement in and out of Gaza and why do you incorrectly state that Israel put them in an "open air prison" when Israel allowed movement to Israel for work / healthcare - something that was never allowed by Egypt.

Let's be honest here - is this because the Egyptians aren't Jewish?

Let's be honest here - is this because the Egyptians aren't Jewish?

🥱

That doesn’t work anymore I’m afraid when it comes to highlighting Israel’s actions.

Considering Palestinians are from what is now Israel, using whataboutery to justify how they are treated in their own homeland isn’t really a strong enough argument.

I could be one of the stop the genocide folk and pro Palestinian extremists you refer to. I'm against the genocide. Believe me I won't be disappointed if hostilities cease, it's what I wanted all along. I won't be pivoting to anything except that Gaza is left alone, it's suffered enough. Let it try to get back to some kind of normality.
Same for the hostages.
I'd also like the incursions into the West Bank to stop. I don't think Israel should be doing this in breach of international law. And I honestly don't think these incursions are in the best interest of Israel.
I'm not mourning the heavy defeats of Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah. Syria? I'll be honest I'm not too sure about the ex Isis leader. I'm very wary of any Isis like emergence. But I'm hopeful for peace. We have to stay hopeful for peace for everyone. And to give peace a chance.

I wouldn't say that Netanyahu gives a rat arse about Palestinians, or the Israeli hostages still in Gaza either. No one in power does.

The ability of humans beings to dehumanise people and dismiss their suffering is terrifying.

This isn't a football match where you have to pick a side and blindly follow it, shutting your eyes to the destruction your chosen side caused.

@NWL

"Let's be honest here - is this because the Egyptians aren't Jewish?"

"That doesn’t work anymore I’m afraid when it comes to highlighting Israel’s actions.

Considering Palestinians are from what is now Israel, using whataboutery to justify how they are treated in their own homeland isn’t really a strong enough argument"

OK if your reason has nothing to do with religion then what is your reason then for falsely stating that only Israel controlled all movement in and out of Gaza and what is your reason for incorrectly stating that Israel put them in an "open air prison" when Israel allowed movement to Israel for work / healthcare - something that Egypt did not.

It's either
A) a lack of geographical knowledge
B) something else "special" about the Egyptians.

@1dayatatime They have explained. Because Israel controls so much of Gaza’s borders and resources, it can be considered an occupying power and therefore has a duty to protect civilians.

Egypt has allowed some cross for healthcare too but you are quite right that both Egypt and Israel have imposed the devastating blockade though. Many countries are working with Israel and facilitating these atrocities, I 100% agree with you. That’s why putting pressure on international governments is so important.

https://www.thejournal.ie/hamas-gaza-ceasefire-talks-israel-strikes-6753740-Jul2025/

Tentatively positive direction for the negotiations.

Israel doesn’t want ceasefire. It suits their agenda to destabilise the region which is why BN helped Hamas into power. A tiny detail which seems to be forgotten. BN doesn’t want negotiations.