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Conflict in the Middle East
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21
BelleHathor · 01/07/2025 21:59

No problem at all, it's great to have an intelligent conversation.

Sachs is right, though don't feel sorry for America, they're not a neutral, innocent party that was tricked into acting. If anything always "leaving it to Bibi" in the region allows America to keep it's hands clean (and also easily blame/drop Israel when its no longer in their strategic interest) and perhaps they pivot to China.

Netanyahu famously (when no longer in office in Israel) addressed American congress in 2002 arguing for America to start a war against Iraq :

"If you take out Saddam, I guarantee you that it will have enormous positive reverberations on the region. ... the first victory in Afghanistan makes the second victory in Iraq that much easier... and therefore I think that the choice of Iraq is a good choice."

Where did that come from? "The Clean Break Memo"

In 1997 (1 year after Netanyahu was first elected) Douglas Feith and Richard Perle advised Netanyahu to make "a clean break" from the Oslo accords with the Palestinians. They also argued that Israeli security would be served best by regime change in surrounding countries.

https://medium.com/dan-sanchez/clean-break-to-dirty-wars-d5ebc5fda9f9

"Pursuit of comprehensive peace with all of Israel’s neighbors was to be abandoned for selective peace with some neighbors (namely Jordan and Turkey) and implacable antagonism toward others (namely Iraq, Syria, and Iran). The weight of its strategic allies would tip the balance of power in favor of Israel, which could then use that leverage to topple the regimes of its strategic adversaries by using covertly managed “proxy forces” and “the principle of preemption.” Through such a “redrawing of the map of the Middle East,” Israel would “shape the regional environment,” and thus, “Israel will not only contain its foes; it will transcend them.”"

Reading that with Wesley Clarkes memo it's easy to see how we ended up here. Syria was the last part of the jigsaw and Assad fell in December 2024.

Clean Break to Dirty Wars

Shattering the Middle East for Israel’s Northern Front

https://medium.com/dan-sanchez/clean-break-to-dirty-wars-d5ebc5fda9f9

veiledsentiments · 01/07/2025 22:00

quantumbutterfly · 01/07/2025 21:48

pogroms?

That’s what’s it’s known as. From the Russians. Hope that helps.

veiledsentiments · 01/07/2025 22:20

BelleHathor · 01/07/2025 21:59

No problem at all, it's great to have an intelligent conversation.

Sachs is right, though don't feel sorry for America, they're not a neutral, innocent party that was tricked into acting. If anything always "leaving it to Bibi" in the region allows America to keep it's hands clean (and also easily blame/drop Israel when its no longer in their strategic interest) and perhaps they pivot to China.

Netanyahu famously (when no longer in office in Israel) addressed American congress in 2002 arguing for America to start a war against Iraq :

"If you take out Saddam, I guarantee you that it will have enormous positive reverberations on the region. ... the first victory in Afghanistan makes the second victory in Iraq that much easier... and therefore I think that the choice of Iraq is a good choice."

Where did that come from? "The Clean Break Memo"

In 1997 (1 year after Netanyahu was first elected) Douglas Feith and Richard Perle advised Netanyahu to make "a clean break" from the Oslo accords with the Palestinians. They also argued that Israeli security would be served best by regime change in surrounding countries.

https://medium.com/dan-sanchez/clean-break-to-dirty-wars-d5ebc5fda9f9

"Pursuit of comprehensive peace with all of Israel’s neighbors was to be abandoned for selective peace with some neighbors (namely Jordan and Turkey) and implacable antagonism toward others (namely Iraq, Syria, and Iran). The weight of its strategic allies would tip the balance of power in favor of Israel, which could then use that leverage to topple the regimes of its strategic adversaries by using covertly managed “proxy forces” and “the principle of preemption.” Through such a “redrawing of the map of the Middle East,” Israel would “shape the regional environment,” and thus, “Israel will not only contain its foes; it will transcend them.”"

Reading that with Wesley Clarkes memo it's easy to see how we ended up here. Syria was the last part of the jigsaw and Assad fell in December 2024.

It’s it ironic that Biden said in the 80’s that if Israel didn’t exist, we would of have created it?

BelleHathor · 01/07/2025 23:39

veiledsentiments · 01/07/2025 22:20

It’s it ironic that Biden said in the 80’s that if Israel didn’t exist, we would of have created it?

After all War is a racket and seemingly a very profitable one for certain individuals:

"Indicted defense contractor Brent R. Wilkes was reported to be ecstatic when hearing that the United States was going to go to war with Iraq. "He and some of his top executives were really gung-ho about the war," said a former employee. "Brent said this would create new opportunities for the company. He was really excited about doing business in the Middle East."[40] One of the top profiteers from the Iraq War was oil field services corporation, Halliburton. Halliburton gained $39.5 billion in "federal contracts related to the Iraq war"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_profiteering#:~:text=He%20was%20really%20excited%20about,related%20to%20the%20Iraq%20war%22.

War profiteering - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_profiteering#:~:text=He%20was%20really%20excited%20about,related%20to%20the%20Iraq%20war%22.

stepawayfromthedarkside · 02/07/2025 10:17

BelleHathor · 01/07/2025 23:39

After all War is a racket and seemingly a very profitable one for certain individuals:

"Indicted defense contractor Brent R. Wilkes was reported to be ecstatic when hearing that the United States was going to go to war with Iraq. "He and some of his top executives were really gung-ho about the war," said a former employee. "Brent said this would create new opportunities for the company. He was really excited about doing business in the Middle East."[40] One of the top profiteers from the Iraq War was oil field services corporation, Halliburton. Halliburton gained $39.5 billion in "federal contracts related to the Iraq war"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_profiteering#:~:text=He%20was%20really%20excited%20about,related%20to%20the%20Iraq%20war%22.

According to my very mainstream Hobsbawn textbook, war profiteering from the American civil war is what kickstarted the Rothschild wealth, which then set the ever expanding trend which continues to the present day amongst the banking families. Germany asked for the US' help in negotiating peace in ww1 in 1917 but this idea was not supported, including by Lloyd George who said that to continue with war would be super for the British coffers according to some historians. Ford is another example of someone who tried to stop ww1 but was then persuaded (by Edison?) that if he helped make weapons he could make a lot of money out of the war. And so on.

In relation to the US I think Trump was being genuine when he said he wanted to stop war and death, but I think there are influences in the US against that. MR Pahlavi (former shah) was famously interviewed in the 70s/80s and said it was the Israel lobby which made the decisions behind the scenes and controlled all media in the US - the interviewer appeared very shocked. Whoever it is, if they want money over humanity they are wrong.

I think we have a unique window of opportunity today. Just as during covid everyone became epidemiologist, today more and more people are becoming expert at geopolitics, and if enough people today say enough is enough we want peace then I think it is possible a path will be found. It was said to be public opinion which ended the Vietnam blood bath (though John McCain was reported to have said the peace mongers were traitors...). There are a lot of principled leaders and decision makers out there today.

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