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Conflict in the Middle East
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21
EasternStandard · 28/06/2025 15:29

stepawayfromthedarkside · 28/06/2025 14:26

@BelleHathor I haven't yet read the report but will. However, it is dated 2009 and quite a lot has changed since then. BRICS and the relationships between the parties have increased - and the BRICS countries support trade, peace, multipolar, no WWIII etc - but will retaliate in defence if pushed. Whereas the west still seem stuck in the thinking of the past, almost colonial. Also, what happened on Oct 7 ironically increased the world's awareness of the Israel/Palestinian conflict, which has raged since the Balfour agreement of 1917, so although there is condemnation for terrorism, there is also increased awareness of the roots of the conflict and the acts of both sides.

Re BRICs hopefully China wants peace but who knows. They are certainly amassing military capability at pace.

Russia doesn’t with invasion of Ukraine.

Iran has too many proxies attacking Israel to be said to want peace.

I do hope we can get on better though. And I saw that Trump wanted to invite countries to G7?

It could improve. Hopefully not deteriorate. I still think people are right to say Iran shouldn’t have nuclear weapons. It’s an own goal to want them to have them, if based in the U.K.

Twiglets1 · 28/06/2025 17:04

No @stepawayfromthedarkside I did not watch the Ayatollah's speech in full and neither will I be doing so. I tend to agree with the Spectator writer Jawad Iqbal who describes him as deluded and having a "trademark habit of being entirely divorced from reality".

The Ayatollah claimed that the US bombing of his country’s nuclear sites "did not achieve anything". In reality, the US forces struck three nuclear sites with huge bunker-busting bombs.

Khamenei claims that Iran "delivered a heavy slap to the US’s face" – a reference to an Iranian missile attack on a US military base in Qatar which led to no casualties. The Americans were given notice of the Iranian plans and Trump described the Iranian action as "very weak", claiming that 13 of the 14 missiles fired had been intercepted. In other words, it wasn't a serious attack.

As Jawad Iqbal comments, Few will be convinced by his bid to minimise the national humiliation that his regime suffered during the 12-day war with Iran.
Just as implausible is the idea that Iran has emerged ‘victorious’ from this conflict, and in a position of strength to reek revenge if attacked by its enemies at some future point.

Despite the show of bravado, the Ayatollah is still in hiding. Iran's "supreme leader" is reduced to delivering the occasional recorded video message on television from a secret location.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/irans-supreme-leader-looks-more-deluded-than-defiant/

stepawayfromthedarkside · 30/06/2025 19:04

Twiglets1 · 28/06/2025 17:04

No @stepawayfromthedarkside I did not watch the Ayatollah's speech in full and neither will I be doing so. I tend to agree with the Spectator writer Jawad Iqbal who describes him as deluded and having a "trademark habit of being entirely divorced from reality".

The Ayatollah claimed that the US bombing of his country’s nuclear sites "did not achieve anything". In reality, the US forces struck three nuclear sites with huge bunker-busting bombs.

Khamenei claims that Iran "delivered a heavy slap to the US’s face" – a reference to an Iranian missile attack on a US military base in Qatar which led to no casualties. The Americans were given notice of the Iranian plans and Trump described the Iranian action as "very weak", claiming that 13 of the 14 missiles fired had been intercepted. In other words, it wasn't a serious attack.

As Jawad Iqbal comments, Few will be convinced by his bid to minimise the national humiliation that his regime suffered during the 12-day war with Iran.
Just as implausible is the idea that Iran has emerged ‘victorious’ from this conflict, and in a position of strength to reek revenge if attacked by its enemies at some future point.

Despite the show of bravado, the Ayatollah is still in hiding. Iran's "supreme leader" is reduced to delivering the occasional recorded video message on television from a secret location.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/irans-supreme-leader-looks-more-deluded-than-defiant/

Just checking in - you haven't answered the question in my post at 15:10?

Re your POV re not wanting to watch the speech yourself that is your call. If you want a better understanding of what is going on and details of what has damaged and when and the latest in terms of information, there is a lot of information on the net some of which will be primary sources as opposed to editorials but you have to dig around for it, it won't necessarily all be neatly set out in one document. If you only want to read articles in the Spectator, though, that is your call too.

Twiglets1 · 30/06/2025 19:14

stepawayfromthedarkside · 30/06/2025 19:04

Just checking in - you haven't answered the question in my post at 15:10?

Re your POV re not wanting to watch the speech yourself that is your call. If you want a better understanding of what is going on and details of what has damaged and when and the latest in terms of information, there is a lot of information on the net some of which will be primary sources as opposed to editorials but you have to dig around for it, it won't necessarily all be neatly set out in one document. If you only want to read articles in the Spectator, though, that is your call too.

Edited

You're so funny, I post a couple of articles from the Spectator and now suddenly that is all I want to read?

You're not even being original - someone said previously that I got all my information from Times of Israel when I linked to some of their articles.

stepawayfromthedarkside · 30/06/2025 21:51

Twiglets1 · 30/06/2025 19:14

You're so funny, I post a couple of articles from the Spectator and now suddenly that is all I want to read?

You're not even being original - someone said previously that I got all my information from Times of Israel when I linked to some of their articles.

I wasn't intending to be funny - I say "did you watch what he said?" (it was about 10 minutes long) you say "no and i won't i have read these articles instead" and i say "if you only want to read those articles [on the subject] that is your choice but if you want to know more then you will need to look at wider sources and primary sources" (or words to that effect). how is that funny?

I cannot fathom why you want to read other people's commentaries rather than form your own view. I really don't think that is me being funny.

Please could you answer my questions in my earlier post?

Twiglets1 · 01/07/2025 07:06

stepawayfromthedarkside · 30/06/2025 21:51

I wasn't intending to be funny - I say "did you watch what he said?" (it was about 10 minutes long) you say "no and i won't i have read these articles instead" and i say "if you only want to read those articles [on the subject] that is your choice but if you want to know more then you will need to look at wider sources and primary sources" (or words to that effect). how is that funny?

I cannot fathom why you want to read other people's commentaries rather than form your own view. I really don't think that is me being funny.

Please could you answer my questions in my earlier post?

No you were unintentionally funny because you made a silly comment about me only wanting to read articles in the Spectator whereas I read a whole range of media sources. I appreciate you were intending to be mildly insulting but actually I found it amusing.

In regard to your previous question, no I don't agree with certain commentators who have suggested that the attacks are really about Israel expansion.

The war against Hamas - Hamas attacked first not Israel. Had Hamas not attacked, the two sides would still be living the way they were before in an uneasy truce and none of the war casualties would have occurred.

The war against Iran - it was about their nuclear threat and hardly about expanding land since they aren't geographically next to each other.

Others are entitled to their opinion but I don't agree with them.

Twiglets1 · 01/07/2025 07:14

Re your other question, what makes me think that Trump was downplaying the Iran attack on the US airbase? It was the language he used which was the opposite of inflammatory.

He described Iran’s ballistic missile attack on Al Udeid Air Base in Qatar as a “very weak response,” a choice of words that appears to downplay the attack.

In a statement released shortly after the incident, Trump said Iran had launched 14 ballistic missiles. “There have been 14 missiles fired — 13 were knocked down, and 1 was ‘set free,’ because it was headed in a nonthreatening direction,” he wrote.

Trump added that no American personnel were harmed and that the strike caused minimal damage. “Most importantly, they’ve gotten it all out of their ‘system,’ and there will, hopefully, be no further HATE,” he said. The president also thanked Iran for what he described as “early notice” that helped prevent any casualties.

BelleHathor · 01/07/2025 10:37

stepawayfromthedarkside · 28/06/2025 14:03

Well, I will keep being patient and polite even if you can't. You are missing the point (I say this politely and patiently) focusing on the "slap". The focus should be on future peace. Did you watch the link to the IranFM statement on day 2/3 of the war and do you understand what he said?

Edited

@stepawayfromthedarkside Apologies about the delay in responding (been away this weekend).

I fully agree with everything that you said above, BRICS is an excellent counterbalance to the old institutions (UN, ICJ etc.) that are based on imperialist/colonial structures that only serve to hold up the status quo and benefit many of the perpetrators of breaches of International Law.

The problem with BRICS is that it is still in its infancy and some of the current members are IMHO weak links (e.g. India & Brazil who have their feet in both BRICS and the Western Camps hedging their bets). They've failed to fully perceive the predatory and duplicitous nature of the old world order.

Russia, China and now finally Iran now understand that their alliance presents a threat to the status quo (US & Europe) but it may be too late to counter this. BRICS is mostly trade right now and has not formally moved to security alliances (though Russia did offer Iran a security alliance a few months ago that Iran did not agree to).

The report is from 2009 but it should be read with other statements that have been made over the years, and other projects like the "Wolfowitz doctrine" from the 1990s which "refers to a controversial, leaked draft of the 1992 U.S. Defense Planning Guidance, primarily authored by Paul Wolfowitz, then Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, and his deputy Scooter Libby. The document outlined a post-Cold War foreign policy strategy that emphasized maintaining U.S. global dominance and preventing the rise of any potential rival power. It advocated for pre-emptive military action and a rejection of multilateralism in favour of unilateral U.S. action to secure its interests."

Also there was this infamous interview from General Wesley Clark from 2003:

[AMY GOODMAN]
Do you see a replay in what happened in the lead-up to the war with Iraq -- the allegations of the weapons of mass destruction, the media leaping onto the bandwagon?

[GEN. WESLEY CLARK]
Well, in a way. But, you know, history doesn’t repeat itself exactly twice. What I did warn about when I testified in front of Congress in 2002, I said if you want to worry about a state, it shouldn’t be Iraq, it should be Iran. But this government, our administration, wanted to worry about Iraq, not Iran.

I knew why, because I had been through the Pentagon right after 9/11. About ten days after 9/11, I went through the Pentagon and I saw Secretary Rumsfeld and Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz. I went downstairs just to say hello to some of the people on the Joint Staff who used to work for me, and one of the generals called me in. He said, “Sir, you’ve got to come in and talk to me a second.” I said, “Well, you’re too busy.” He said, “No, no.” He says, “We’ve made the decision we’re going to war with Iraq.” This was on or about the 20th of September. I said, “We’re going to war with Iraq? Why?” He said, “I don’t know.” He said, “I guess they don’t know what else to do.” So I said, “Well, did they find some information connecting Saddam to al-Qaeda?” He said, “No, no.” He says, “There’s nothing new that way. They just made the decision to go to war with Iraq.” He said, “I guess it’s like we don’t know what to do about terrorists, but we’ve got a good military and we can take down governments.” And he said, “I guess if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem has to look like a nail.”

So I came back to see him a few weeks later, and by that time we were bombing in Afghanistan. I said, “Are we still going to war with Iraq?” And he said, “Oh, it’s worse than that.” He reached over on his desk. He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, “I just got this down from upstairs” meaning the Secretary of Defense’s office “today.” And he said, “This is a memo that describes how we’re going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran.” I said, “Is it classified?” He said, “Yes, sir.” I said, “Well, don’t show it to me.” And I saw him a year or so ago, and I said, “You remember that?” He said, “Sir, I didn’t show you that memo! I didn’t show it to you!”

As we transition from a Unipolar world to a multipolar world, the former dominant power aka America (and it's vassals) will hit out. America is 37 trillion dollars in debt, it is not producing weapons as fast as China, Russia or Iran and when it does they are often too expensive. Instead of competing America will try to "reign in" any threats hence the Iran action and others advocating for a "pivot to contain China".

These architects always telegraph what they want to do and although it is often delayed, they often end up doing it making the world as a whole less safe.

(The New Atlas on YouTube is a good account to follow about the recent events)

EasternStandard Of course Iran is aware that the US will strike back, not just Israel. Both America and Iran are rational actors. That's why both parties always do this merry dance of informing each other of what they're going to hit and when they're going to hit it.

America has over 40'000 - 50'000 troops in the Middle East (that we know of, not including undercover intelligence etc.). Just like America could destroy Iran and kill several Iranians, Iran could easily target and kill many Americans. You've also got to take into account the American Naval assets, Iran sinks 1 ship and potentially 2000 American's die. Looking at the current polls on the Republican side that are trending anti Israel, whereas after 9/11 there were calls for retaliation, today it's likely Trump would be blamed for being a puppet of Bibi.

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EasternStandard · 01/07/2025 14:51

I just caught a good piece on the radio with someone trying to set up a new Democratic order in Iran.

Sounded very clued up and ready to see the theocracy out. I hope it comes to something.

He was talking about removing the iron curtain, being more South Korea than North Korea and letting people have a voice. Hopefully it will come to something.

CommissarySushi · 01/07/2025 15:09

EasternStandard · 01/07/2025 14:51

I just caught a good piece on the radio with someone trying to set up a new Democratic order in Iran.

Sounded very clued up and ready to see the theocracy out. I hope it comes to something.

He was talking about removing the iron curtain, being more South Korea than North Korea and letting people have a voice. Hopefully it will come to something.

Edited

I don't have high hopes. They will probably disappear soon.

EasternStandard · 01/07/2025 15:14

CommissarySushi · 01/07/2025 15:09

I don't have high hopes. They will probably disappear soon.

That's a sad thought. On googling I think I was listening to this person

Exiled from Iran for more than 40 years, Iranian crown prince Reza Pahlavi, the son of the country’s deposed Shah, on Monday offered to lead Iran’s transition to democracy after regime change.
Pahlavi held a press conference Monday in Paris amid spiraling tensions in the Middle East, as Iran launched retaliatory strikes against U.S. assets in the region, in retaliation for U.S. strikes on three Iranian nuclear facilities over the weekend.

“We stand at a crossroads, one road leads to bloodshed and chaos, the other to a peaceful and democratic transition,”

“I am here today to submit myself to my compatriots to lead them down this road of peace and democratic transition. I do not seek political power but rather to help our great nation navigate through this critical hour towards stability, freedom and justice.”

veiledsentiments · 01/07/2025 16:50

EasternStandard · 01/07/2025 15:14

That's a sad thought. On googling I think I was listening to this person

Exiled from Iran for more than 40 years, Iranian crown prince Reza Pahlavi, the son of the country’s deposed Shah, on Monday offered to lead Iran’s transition to democracy after regime change.
Pahlavi held a press conference Monday in Paris amid spiraling tensions in the Middle East, as Iran launched retaliatory strikes against U.S. assets in the region, in retaliation for U.S. strikes on three Iranian nuclear facilities over the weekend.

“We stand at a crossroads, one road leads to bloodshed and chaos, the other to a peaceful and democratic transition,”

“I am here today to submit myself to my compatriots to lead them down this road of peace and democratic transition. I do not seek political power but rather to help our great nation navigate through this critical hour towards stability, freedom and justice.”

Edited

You do know that the Shah of Iran had a secret police force called the Savak, which were on a par with the police force in Sadam Hussain’s, or going further back, the Gestapo. Consequently, Iran and its people, don’t necessarily want those kind of people back in control. Just saying.

thethingthatshouldnotbee · 01/07/2025 16:51

veiledsentiments · 01/07/2025 16:50

You do know that the Shah of Iran had a secret police force called the Savak, which were on a par with the police force in Sadam Hussain’s, or going further back, the Gestapo. Consequently, Iran and its people, don’t necessarily want those kind of people back in control. Just saying.

Was that all the fault of the zionists too?

EasternStandard · 01/07/2025 16:56

thethingthatshouldnotbee · 01/07/2025 16:51

Was that all the fault of the zionists too?

It sounds like democracy is not wanted by some. Re pp.

veiledsentiments · 01/07/2025 16:57

thethingthatshouldnotbee · 01/07/2025 16:51

Was that all the fault of the zionists too?

No. Why would it be? It was the fault of the Americans who were afraid that Iran was about to align itself with communism. Not everything is Israel’s fault.

veiledsentiments · 01/07/2025 16:58

thethingthatshouldnotbee · 01/07/2025 16:51

Was that all the fault of the zionists too?

Israel was too busy trying to establish an apartheid state at the time to be too worried about Iran.

stepawayfromthedarkside · 01/07/2025 20:38

EasternStandard · 01/07/2025 14:51

I just caught a good piece on the radio with someone trying to set up a new Democratic order in Iran.

Sounded very clued up and ready to see the theocracy out. I hope it comes to something.

He was talking about removing the iron curtain, being more South Korea than North Korea and letting people have a voice. Hopefully it will come to something.

Edited

It is worth you reading up on the electoral process in Iran, and what would happen if there were a regime change. Both Israel and Iran are religious states, with elected politicians - ie an elected president and PM. The Ayatollah is the figurehead - and the crown is the figurehead in the UK. How much power do each of them have?

The guy you are talking about - Pahlavi - it is worth looking his father up and watching some of the interviews with him too, as he was very critical of the powerhouse behind Israel and its influence on the US before he was overthrown. In relation to his son, the exile, has he sought UN approval for a forced regime change?

Also what is his real experience in politics and leadership? Anyone could say "I could lead this country into success" - but what is the evidence? How does he know what the electorate in Iran want (since he has not lived there for decades) Who are his backers? Would he be thought of as a western puppet? What does this mean?

Forced regime change tends to end in tears is the problem.

And as I said, there is unlikely to be UN approval for the regime change. then again, there was no UN approval for bombing of nuke sites so who knows what is going on.

stepawayfromthedarkside · 01/07/2025 20:43

Twiglets1 · 01/07/2025 07:06

No you were unintentionally funny because you made a silly comment about me only wanting to read articles in the Spectator whereas I read a whole range of media sources. I appreciate you were intending to be mildly insulting but actually I found it amusing.

In regard to your previous question, no I don't agree with certain commentators who have suggested that the attacks are really about Israel expansion.

The war against Hamas - Hamas attacked first not Israel. Had Hamas not attacked, the two sides would still be living the way they were before in an uneasy truce and none of the war casualties would have occurred.

The war against Iran - it was about their nuclear threat and hardly about expanding land since they aren't geographically next to each other.

Others are entitled to their opinion but I don't agree with them.

My comment wasn't silly - how rude. I think when someone starts to get personal it means they are out of their depth, it doesn't help calling people silly or funny when trying to make sense of complex issues. I explained what I meant about the Spectator articles - to do with the fact that you didn't want to watch what the Ayatollah said yourself.

Thanks for answering the questions. You slightly misunderstood the question about whether Israel wanted the land - the commentators I referred to are Israeli and have said that they want Israel to take over much of the Arab land in the region. There is a thread on MN about it from a few months ago. I wondered what you thought about that?

And what do you think of the idea of an agreed, fair and equal two state solution?

Twiglets1 · 01/07/2025 21:03

stepawayfromthedarkside · 01/07/2025 20:43

My comment wasn't silly - how rude. I think when someone starts to get personal it means they are out of their depth, it doesn't help calling people silly or funny when trying to make sense of complex issues. I explained what I meant about the Spectator articles - to do with the fact that you didn't want to watch what the Ayatollah said yourself.

Thanks for answering the questions. You slightly misunderstood the question about whether Israel wanted the land - the commentators I referred to are Israeli and have said that they want Israel to take over much of the Arab land in the region. There is a thread on MN about it from a few months ago. I wondered what you thought about that?

And what do you think of the idea of an agreed, fair and equal two state solution?

I’m tired of answering your questions @stepawayfromthedarkside so I’ll say Goodnight.

stepawayfromthedarkside · 01/07/2025 21:11

BelleHathor · 01/07/2025 10:37

@stepawayfromthedarkside Apologies about the delay in responding (been away this weekend).

I fully agree with everything that you said above, BRICS is an excellent counterbalance to the old institutions (UN, ICJ etc.) that are based on imperialist/colonial structures that only serve to hold up the status quo and benefit many of the perpetrators of breaches of International Law.

The problem with BRICS is that it is still in its infancy and some of the current members are IMHO weak links (e.g. India & Brazil who have their feet in both BRICS and the Western Camps hedging their bets). They've failed to fully perceive the predatory and duplicitous nature of the old world order.

Russia, China and now finally Iran now understand that their alliance presents a threat to the status quo (US & Europe) but it may be too late to counter this. BRICS is mostly trade right now and has not formally moved to security alliances (though Russia did offer Iran a security alliance a few months ago that Iran did not agree to).

The report is from 2009 but it should be read with other statements that have been made over the years, and other projects like the "Wolfowitz doctrine" from the 1990s which "refers to a controversial, leaked draft of the 1992 U.S. Defense Planning Guidance, primarily authored by Paul Wolfowitz, then Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, and his deputy Scooter Libby. The document outlined a post-Cold War foreign policy strategy that emphasized maintaining U.S. global dominance and preventing the rise of any potential rival power. It advocated for pre-emptive military action and a rejection of multilateralism in favour of unilateral U.S. action to secure its interests."

Also there was this infamous interview from General Wesley Clark from 2003:

[AMY GOODMAN]
Do you see a replay in what happened in the lead-up to the war with Iraq -- the allegations of the weapons of mass destruction, the media leaping onto the bandwagon?

[GEN. WESLEY CLARK]
Well, in a way. But, you know, history doesn’t repeat itself exactly twice. What I did warn about when I testified in front of Congress in 2002, I said if you want to worry about a state, it shouldn’t be Iraq, it should be Iran. But this government, our administration, wanted to worry about Iraq, not Iran.

I knew why, because I had been through the Pentagon right after 9/11. About ten days after 9/11, I went through the Pentagon and I saw Secretary Rumsfeld and Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz. I went downstairs just to say hello to some of the people on the Joint Staff who used to work for me, and one of the generals called me in. He said, “Sir, you’ve got to come in and talk to me a second.” I said, “Well, you’re too busy.” He said, “No, no.” He says, “We’ve made the decision we’re going to war with Iraq.” This was on or about the 20th of September. I said, “We’re going to war with Iraq? Why?” He said, “I don’t know.” He said, “I guess they don’t know what else to do.” So I said, “Well, did they find some information connecting Saddam to al-Qaeda?” He said, “No, no.” He says, “There’s nothing new that way. They just made the decision to go to war with Iraq.” He said, “I guess it’s like we don’t know what to do about terrorists, but we’ve got a good military and we can take down governments.” And he said, “I guess if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem has to look like a nail.”

So I came back to see him a few weeks later, and by that time we were bombing in Afghanistan. I said, “Are we still going to war with Iraq?” And he said, “Oh, it’s worse than that.” He reached over on his desk. He picked up a piece of paper. And he said, “I just got this down from upstairs” meaning the Secretary of Defense’s office “today.” And he said, “This is a memo that describes how we’re going to take out seven countries in five years, starting with Iraq, and then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and, finishing off, Iran.” I said, “Is it classified?” He said, “Yes, sir.” I said, “Well, don’t show it to me.” And I saw him a year or so ago, and I said, “You remember that?” He said, “Sir, I didn’t show you that memo! I didn’t show it to you!”

As we transition from a Unipolar world to a multipolar world, the former dominant power aka America (and it's vassals) will hit out. America is 37 trillion dollars in debt, it is not producing weapons as fast as China, Russia or Iran and when it does they are often too expensive. Instead of competing America will try to "reign in" any threats hence the Iran action and others advocating for a "pivot to contain China".

These architects always telegraph what they want to do and although it is often delayed, they often end up doing it making the world as a whole less safe.

(The New Atlas on YouTube is a good account to follow about the recent events)

EasternStandard Of course Iran is aware that the US will strike back, not just Israel. Both America and Iran are rational actors. That's why both parties always do this merry dance of informing each other of what they're going to hit and when they're going to hit it.

America has over 40'000 - 50'000 troops in the Middle East (that we know of, not including undercover intelligence etc.). Just like America could destroy Iran and kill several Iranians, Iran could easily target and kill many Americans. You've also got to take into account the American Naval assets, Iran sinks 1 ship and potentially 2000 American's die. Looking at the current polls on the Republican side that are trending anti Israel, whereas after 9/11 there were calls for retaliation, today it's likely Trump would be blamed for being a puppet of Bibi.

Thank you for all that, it was very interesting. The leaked memo is frankly terrifying. Sachs is convinced that the attack of Iraq was the brainchild of Netanyahu - Sachs showed videos in one of his talks showing Netanyahu arguing in favour of the invasion of Iraq.

A two state solution would be good, now, and achievable if the entire rest of the world all agreed it would be a jolly good thing. Especially if the current US politicians embraced peace over a unipolar world. I have a glass half full, ha!

stepawayfromthedarkside · 01/07/2025 21:12

Twiglets1 · 01/07/2025 21:03

I’m tired of answering your questions @stepawayfromthedarkside so I’ll say Goodnight.

No worries.

thethingthatshouldnotbee · 01/07/2025 21:37

veiledsentiments · 01/07/2025 16:57

No. Why would it be? It was the fault of the Americans who were afraid that Iran was about to align itself with communism. Not everything is Israel’s fault.

Reallypp? You already blamed programs against Jews on Jewish people, surprised your not blaming them for this too.

veiledsentiments · 01/07/2025 21:42

thethingthatshouldnotbee · 01/07/2025 21:37

Reallypp? You already blamed programs against Jews on Jewish people, surprised your not blaming them for this too.

Because it wasn’t their fault.

veiledsentiments · 01/07/2025 21:46

thethingthatshouldnotbee · 01/07/2025 21:37

Reallypp? You already blamed programs against Jews on Jewish people, surprised your not blaming them for this too.

And it’s pograms, not programs. Get it right.

quantumbutterfly · 01/07/2025 21:48

veiledsentiments · 01/07/2025 21:46

And it’s pograms, not programs. Get it right.

pogroms?

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