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Conflict in the Middle East

To wish those in Israel safety in these coming times

684 replies

mids2019 · 15/06/2025 04:09

Israel is a country at war and I know many will have links or family in that country so I think it appropriate to wish them safety in the coming days.

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purpletablet · 18/06/2025 16:42

dairydebris · 18/06/2025 16:33

Apologies, did you just say Hamas are not antisemitic?

I didn’t say Hamas isn’t antisemitic. There are clearly antisemitic elements in their rhetoric and founding charter. But it is important to recognise that their actions are primarily driven by political goals, like resistance to occupation, blockade, and displacement, rather than purely by religious hatred. Reducing the conflict to antisemitism alone oversimplifies the situation and avoids addressing the deeper issues of land, rights, and sovereignty that are at the heart of the violence.

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 16:43

purpletablet · 18/06/2025 16:42

I didn’t say Hamas isn’t antisemitic. There are clearly antisemitic elements in their rhetoric and founding charter. But it is important to recognise that their actions are primarily driven by political goals, like resistance to occupation, blockade, and displacement, rather than purely by religious hatred. Reducing the conflict to antisemitism alone oversimplifies the situation and avoids addressing the deeper issues of land, rights, and sovereignty that are at the heart of the violence.

Wow, just wow.

TheMel · 18/06/2025 16:47

purpletablet · 18/06/2025 16:42

I didn’t say Hamas isn’t antisemitic. There are clearly antisemitic elements in their rhetoric and founding charter. But it is important to recognise that their actions are primarily driven by political goals, like resistance to occupation, blockade, and displacement, rather than purely by religious hatred. Reducing the conflict to antisemitism alone oversimplifies the situation and avoids addressing the deeper issues of land, rights, and sovereignty that are at the heart of the violence.

I disagree. The fundamental underlying opposition to Israel isn't about property but about Jewish rule in what they see as Islamic land.

The original partition plan wouldn't have had any forced displacement, and was generally a fair split going by population, soil fertility etc. The Arab opposition at the time - and ever since - was entirely based on religion.

dairydebris · 18/06/2025 16:47

purpletablet · 18/06/2025 16:42

I didn’t say Hamas isn’t antisemitic. There are clearly antisemitic elements in their rhetoric and founding charter. But it is important to recognise that their actions are primarily driven by political goals, like resistance to occupation, blockade, and displacement, rather than purely by religious hatred. Reducing the conflict to antisemitism alone oversimplifies the situation and avoids addressing the deeper issues of land, rights, and sovereignty that are at the heart of the violence.

The two are not exclusive. Hamas' political goals are antisemitic. To wish for an end to the zionist entity and murder people shouting about killing Jewish dogs is so obviously massively antisemitic, I'm beyond gobsmacked at your last post. I'm out.

dairydebris · 18/06/2025 16:48

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 16:43

Wow, just wow.

Unbelievable. Honestly flabbergasted

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 16:49

dairydebris · 18/06/2025 16:48

Unbelievable. Honestly flabbergasted

I'm seeing quite a few posts in bad faith. As I've said before, the undertones are there.

ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend · 18/06/2025 16:54

dairydebris · 18/06/2025 16:48

Unbelievable. Honestly flabbergasted

So why did Netanyahu fund them? Surely funding a terrorist organisation that's sole purpose was to kill all Jews is self harm.

purpletablet · 18/06/2025 16:56

You’re right that antisemitism is present in some of Hamas’ rhetoric and ideology. I’ve never denied that, and I agree that chanting about killing Jews is hateful and indefensible. But recognising that Hamas contains antisemitic elements does not mean the entire conflict is solely about antisemitism.

What I’ve been trying to say is that there are also deeply rooted political and territorial issues driving this violence. Framing the entire struggle as just about hatred of Jews risks ignoring decades of occupation, displacement, and military control that have fuelled Palestinian anger and resistance. That context doesn’t excuse violence against civilians, but it helps explain why the conflict has persisted for so long.

Reducing it all to antisemitism may feel morally clear-cut, but it oversimplifies a complex situation and shuts down the possibility of addressing the real causes of suffering on both sides.

mouthpipette · 18/06/2025 16:57

purpletablet · 18/06/2025 16:32

What happened on October 7 was horrific, and there is no justification for the deliberate killing of civilians. But that horror does not mean we should accept exaggerated claims that Hamas poses an existential threat to Jews as a people.

Hamas does not target Israelis because they are Jewish. People often deliberately misinterpret this, in order to cover up for the fact that the real reason for the anger and violence is the brutal occupation Palestinians live under at the hands of Israel. That does not excuse their violence, but it does explain the motivation, which is political and territorial rather than religious or racial. Framing it as antisemitism allows people to ignore the political and territorial reality, and avoids confronting the consequences of decades of blockade, displacement, and military control.

Israel is not a helpless victim in this. It is a powerful, nuclear-armed state with one of the most advanced militaries in the world. Hamas, in contrast, is a non-state actor operating in a besieged and impoverished territory. It has no air force, no navy, and no realistic ability to destroy Israel, let alone Jews everywhere.

We can condemn Hamas’s actions without distorting reality or using fear as a reason to justify the collective punishment of millions.

I'm glad I'm not the only one to see this.
Had it not been Jews, but instead Mormons that had decided that Israel was the place for them and they established a Mormon state and treated the Palestinians in the same way that the current inhabitants of Israel had, then the Palestinians would be vehemently antimormonitic and they wouldn't have any grudge against Jews.

Twiglets1 · 18/06/2025 17:01

purpletablet · 18/06/2025 16:56

You’re right that antisemitism is present in some of Hamas’ rhetoric and ideology. I’ve never denied that, and I agree that chanting about killing Jews is hateful and indefensible. But recognising that Hamas contains antisemitic elements does not mean the entire conflict is solely about antisemitism.

What I’ve been trying to say is that there are also deeply rooted political and territorial issues driving this violence. Framing the entire struggle as just about hatred of Jews risks ignoring decades of occupation, displacement, and military control that have fuelled Palestinian anger and resistance. That context doesn’t excuse violence against civilians, but it helps explain why the conflict has persisted for so long.

Reducing it all to antisemitism may feel morally clear-cut, but it oversimplifies a complex situation and shuts down the possibility of addressing the real causes of suffering on both sides.

No you’re just minimising how deeply, profoundly antisemitic Hamas are.

They are literally committed to killing Jews & you’re making that look almost coincidental.

It’s good that you can see that Hamas chanting about killing Jews is hateful. What about when they stop chanting and actually kill loads of Jews, is that hateful too?

purpletablet · 18/06/2025 17:20

Twiglets1 · 18/06/2025 17:01

No you’re just minimising how deeply, profoundly antisemitic Hamas are.

They are literally committed to killing Jews & you’re making that look almost coincidental.

It’s good that you can see that Hamas chanting about killing Jews is hateful. What about when they stop chanting and actually kill loads of Jews, is that hateful too?

Like@mouthpipettesaid-

If the people who established the state of Israel had been Mormons instead of Jews, and they still displaced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, occupied their land, blockaded them, and subjected them to decades of military control and violence, the resistance would still have happened. The core of the conflict is not simply that Israelis are Jewish, but that they represent a state that Palestinians see as having taken their land and denied them basic rights and sovereignty.

That does not mean antisemitism is not real or that it does not exist within Hamas. It clearly does. But saying the entire opposition is rooted only in antisemitism ignores the political realities. Palestinians are not resisting because of who Israelis are religiously, but because of what they do politically and militarily.

Claiming it is only about antisemitism hides that reality. If we want any chance at resolving this conflict, we have to be honest about what is actually driving it.

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 17:21

purpletablet · 18/06/2025 17:20

Like@mouthpipettesaid-

If the people who established the state of Israel had been Mormons instead of Jews, and they still displaced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, occupied their land, blockaded them, and subjected them to decades of military control and violence, the resistance would still have happened. The core of the conflict is not simply that Israelis are Jewish, but that they represent a state that Palestinians see as having taken their land and denied them basic rights and sovereignty.

That does not mean antisemitism is not real or that it does not exist within Hamas. It clearly does. But saying the entire opposition is rooted only in antisemitism ignores the political realities. Palestinians are not resisting because of who Israelis are religiously, but because of what they do politically and militarily.

Claiming it is only about antisemitism hides that reality. If we want any chance at resolving this conflict, we have to be honest about what is actually driving it.

I really do wish this gaslighting would stop.

MusedeBordeaux · 18/06/2025 17:22

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Twiglets1 · 18/06/2025 17:23

Why don’t Hamas chant about killing Israelis then @purpletablet ?

Why do they specifically focus on Jews?

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 17:24

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Yes, quite a few slipping masks.

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 17:27

ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend · 18/06/2025 16:54

So why did Netanyahu fund them? Surely funding a terrorist organisation that's sole purpose was to kill all Jews is self harm.

he didn't fund them.

ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend · 18/06/2025 17:29

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 17:27

he didn't fund them.

Sorry I stand corrected propped them up. Question still stands

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 17:32

ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend · 18/06/2025 17:29

Sorry I stand corrected propped them up. Question still stands

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

I've already read that article, in its entirety - you clearly haven't. These myths are getting tedious.

ComeAsYouAreAsAFriend · 18/06/2025 17:35

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 17:21

I really do wish this gaslighting would stop.

No one is gaslighting anybody. You surely can't believe that Hamas sole objective is based on killing all Jews? It is an Islamist resistance movement which violently rejects the existence of Israel, which it claims is occupying Palestine. This is a mainstream view.

purpletablet · 18/06/2025 17:40

Twiglets1 · 18/06/2025 17:23

Why don’t Hamas chant about killing Israelis then @purpletablet ?

Why do they specifically focus on Jews?

Hamas and some other Palestinian groups do not recognise the legitimacy of the Israeli state, which is why they often refer to Israelis as “Zionists” or “Jews” instead. This language is political, not just religious. It’s not always because they are targeting people for being Jewish, but because in their view, the state of Israel is an illegitimate colonial project, and using the term “Israeli” would imply recognition of its legitimacy.

MusedeBordeaux · 18/06/2025 17:43

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Twiglets1 · 18/06/2025 17:46

Understanding Hamas’s Genocidal Ideology

A close read of Hamas’s founding documents clearly shows its intentions.

The covenant opens with a message that precisely encapsulates Hamas’s master plan. Quoting Hassan al-Banna, the Egyptian founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is a constituent member (Article 2), the document proclaims, “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious … It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps.

“The Day of Judgement will not come about,” it proclaims, “until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 17:49

Oh yeah, it's almost as though Mein Kampf was never written. @purpletablet

mouthpipette · 18/06/2025 18:15

Dangermoo · 18/06/2025 17:21

I really do wish this gaslighting would stop.

How is this gaslighting ?
Are you sure you understand what the term means ?

Stripes56 · 18/06/2025 18:18

dairydebris · 18/06/2025 13:44

To your first paragraph, I was under the impression that if a senior member of the opposing side is believed to be there, then that building does indeed become a legitimate military target. Thats why this war is so awful, Hamas could literally be hiding anywhere in Gaza, and this is by their design. All of Gaza therefore becomes a target, and Israel has plausible deniabilty. Again, by Hamas design. But as for the reports of children being shot in the head, Hind Rajab, and the recent shit show of aid distribution, I admit things are less clear. I hope those found to be committing war crimes can be held to account, on both sides. I do still think if you open the Pandoras box of war, then these things will happen, any humans at war commit atrocities.

I don't see why its misleading to say Palestinians less opportunities than Israel. Statehood was literally something both sides could have declared into existence. The UN proposed a division of land for the 2 groups. Israel accepted and declared statehood. Palestinians didn't. All those things you keep mentioning, why do you keep saying they couldn't have had those? They could, just by saying, yes we are Palestine, these are our borders, this is our flag etc. Then they would have been recognized, as Israel was. Why do you think they couldn't have done this?
All that has happened since is as a consequence of Palestinian refusal to accept Israel as a state on the land. They've prioritized getting rid of israel over their own economic stability. They've launched violent attacks targeted at Israeli citizens instead of building industry. They've voted for political parties that pledge to destroy zionists rather than having any plan at all for a stable future for their children.

I agree with your statement that Israel has killed more than vv. But I think that's because of the huge investment Israel as a nation has made in its own defense. The Iron Dome. Safe rooms. National Service. Israel takes care of its own. If Hamas had the firepower Israel does, what do you think it would have done with it? How many civilians would have been killed by rockets from enemies sent towards Israeli citizens in peacetime?

I think atrocities have been commited by both sides. War crimes too. I am just pushing back at what I see as the constant victimization of Palestinians on here. Their piss poor leadership has constantly been their downfall. I don't agree with the often simplistic Israel = oppressor, Palestinians = victims narrative. It's not as simple as that.

If it should have been easy for the Palestinians to give up their land for the creation of Israel- why is Israel not happy to go back to 1967 borders? And for the sake of peace - why have they not stopped the settlements which are continuing at pace? Can they have half of Jerusalem if it creates peace?

Is it so easy to give up land? If it’s hard for Israel - why not for Palestinians?

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