Please someone make it stop now

[Bellahadthese]

It's heartbreaking
The gaunt, haunted images of children who are being starved to death, the amputees, the orphans, the women who used ivf to have a child that was blown to bits, the 40 newborns left to starve to death in neonatal ward
The hospitals bombed
Charity kitchens and bakeries bombed
Aid workers bombed
Tents bombs
Schools bombed
No universities left
Nothing left
I don't want to hear ooh but Israel has a right to exist
NO state that behaves like this has a right to exist
How can anyone justify Israel's stance?
This didn't start on Oct 7
This isn't about hostages
This is about human rights and why you think it's okay for Palestinians not to have any
I was a kid when Band Aid came about and remember how we raised money for Ethiopia
The fact that this is a man-made famine is abhorrent
I know there are good people in Israel- none in government sadly- but the West has blood on its hands for allowing this slaughter
Be honest you don't think that Palestinians are human do you that's why you don't care
I will never believe the western lie of democracy or human rights or freedom of speech again
It's all a big fat lie

The truth is, Jews were generally treated better under the Ottoman Empire—and certainly better than in Europe, where many of Israel's current descendants originate and you can't just forcibly expel hundreds of thousands of indigenous people form their lands and expect no resistance. No person, people or culture accepts that. 1948 wasn't a simply hostile act out of a clear blue sky.

Jews were generally treated relatively well in the Ottoman Empire compared to their experiences in many parts of Europe during the same time periods. Here's an overview of their treatment and status:

1. Legal and Social Status

Jews, along with Christians, were classified as dhimmi (protected non-Muslim communities) under Islamic law. This meant they were granted freedom of religion, autonomy in community affairs, and protection in return for paying the jizya* (a special tax for non-Muslims).
While they were second-class citizens* and subject to some social and legal restrictions (e.g., not bearing arms, limitations in public roles), they were allowed to practice their religion, run their own schools and courts, and manage internal community matters.

2. Welcoming of Sephardic Jews

In 1492, the Ottoman Empire famously welcomed Sephardic Jews expelled from Spain during the Spanish Inquisition. Sultan Bayezid II* invited them to settle in the empire, recognizing their skills and economic value.
These Jews settled in cities like Istanbul, Salonica (Thessaloniki), and Izmir*, and contributed significantly to trade, finance, medicine, and diplomacy.

3. Economic and Cultural Contributions

Jews were active in commerce, crafts, and medicine. Some held roles as court physicians, diplomats, or financial advisors.
Jewish communities developed rich religious, linguistic (especially Ladino, a Judeo-Spanish language), and cultural traditions under Ottoman rule.

4. Instances of Discrimination and Tension

While the general treatment was tolerant, Jews occasionally faced discrimination, local hostility, or blood libel accusations, especially in the 19th century.
The decline of the empire and rising nationalism sometimes led to tension between ethnic and religious groups, including Jews.

5. Tanzimat Reforms (1839–1876)

These reforms aimed at modernizing the empire and included moves toward equality for all subjects, including Jews and Christians.
Jews gained increased rights in education, political representation, and civil status during this period.

In summary, Jews in the Ottoman Empire were treated better than in many contemporary European societies, enjoyed religious and communal autonomy, and contributed meaningfully to the empire’s life, even if they faced certain systemic restrictions.

I think the phrase here should be 'recollections vary'.

Would any credible historian preface their work with 'the truth is' ? Or perhaps ending every sentence withe word 'fact' and an exclamation mark.

Dhimmitude, violence and enslavement of Non-muslims

The term dhimma is often translated as “pact of protection,” and the conquered non-Muslims are described as “protected.” This is misleading. The Arabic verb dhamma means “blame, find fault, censure for evil conduct,” so in its original use, the word dhimma implied blame or fault: it referred to a covenant, the non-observance of which would incur a liability. It is therefore better translated as “pact of liability.”[1]
The historian Bat Ye’or has documented the social, political, economic and religious conditions of dhimmi communities – Jews and Christians – in the Middle East.[2] This is a sad history of dispossession and decline. Legal provisions applying to dhimmis ensured their humiliation and inferiority, and to this was added the often crippling taxes which were allocated to support the Muslim community. Under conditions of dhimmitude there was also a constant risk of jihad conditions being reinvoked – of lawful massacre, enslavement and looting – if the dhimmi community was considered to have failed to live up to the conditions of their pact.[3] According to some jurists, a single non-Muslim’s failure to keep the dhimma conditions could result in the whole community losing its protection, and the jihad restarting.
History records many examples where dhimmis were attacked by their fellow Muslim citizens on such grounds, for example the massacres of the Jews of Granada in 1066, and of the Christians of Damascus in 1860.

Like sexism and racism, dhimmitude is not only manifested in legal and social structures, but in a psychology of inferiority, a will to serve, which the dominated community adopts in self-preservation. This was described by Bat Ye’or:
The law required from dhimmis a humble demeanor, eyes lowered, a hurried pace. They had to give way to Muslims in the street, remain standing in their presence and keep silent, only speaking to them when given permission. They were forbidden to defend themselves if attacked, or to raise a hand against a Muslim on pain of having it amputated. Any criticism of the Koran or Islamic law annuled the protection pact. In addition the dhimmi was duty-bound to be grateful, since it was Islamic law that spared his life.
The whole corpus of these practices ... formed an unchanging behavior pattern which was perpetuated from generation to generation for centuries. It was so deeply internalised that it escaped critical evaluation and invaded the realm of self-image, which was henceforth dominated by a conditioning in self-devaluation. ... This situation, determined by a corpus of precise legislation and social behaviour patterns based on prejudice and religious traditions, induced the same type of mentality in all dhimmi groups. It has four major characteristics: vulnerability, humiliation, gratitude and alienation.[4]

I doubt any 'credible' historians are spending their time on Mumsnet—we're likely all amateurs arguing from the standpoint of our own prejudices and experiences. That said, Zionism has often required its adherents to embrace myths like 'a land without a people for a people without a land,' thereby downplaying the historical reality of the Arab inhabitants of pre-Israel and glossing over the terror used to drive so many from their lands in 1948 and later.

To say Jews in the Ottoman Empire were generally (generally doing some pretty heavy lifting here) treated better than in Europe is setting a really low bar and whitewashes the centuries of institutionalised oppression and exploitation

Recollections vary indeed

I don't doubt what you say, but in the historical context, that was certainly more enlightened than the continued and persistent pogroms and ghettoization in Europe. Europe, for the most part, practiced slavery for centuries as well. It was the Germans who were responsible for the greatest outrage in all of history—that’s on them and their grubby allies in occupied Eastern Europe, not on Palestinian Arabs, who ultimately suffered the blowback.

A huge tract of where Israel was recreated was uninhabited swampland infested with malaria carrying mosquitoes. Jews cleaned it all up and turned it into residential and agricultural land. After Jews started improving the infrastructure of the whole area and improved the living standards Arabs immigrated from surrounding countries to take advantage of the better living standards. After 1967 they then claimed to be Palestinian. In Gaza the most common surname is Al-Masri, meaning the Egyptian

It's all relative to the times. A million Irishmen died in the Great Hunger—times were hard for the vast majority of people everywhere. That's on the ruling classes, whatever their stripe, not on the people

Really? Enlightened to chop people's arms off for criticising a God they don't even believe in?

Saying centuries of oppression, murder, rape and enslavement is somehow more enlightened than what was happening in Europe is ridiculous apologism. There was nothing enlightened about Muslim's treatment of non-Muslims. It was barbaric

What happened in both Europe and the Ottoman Empire was horrific.

Stupid comparison. Stop making excuses

It certainly wasn't uninhabited. By that logic, I could look at the Highlands, for example, and stake my claim. There were many Arab villages in that region whose inhabitants were driven out by force and terror. 'Al-Masri' (meaning 'the Egyptian') is a common surname in Gaza; it reflects historical connections, not necessarily large-scale Egyptian immigration.

A more honest position would be to say that many displaced European Jews from the Holocaust built their resilience and desire for a homeland by first forcing the British out at gunpoint, and secondly, the Arabs. Sorry about that, but rough justice was necessary in order to provide a place of safety. The desire to deflect from that is understandable, but it doesn't make it true

And it wasn't just the folly of the ruling classes, it came from religion.

The Koranic verse which dictates the fundamental character of dhimmitude is Sura 9:29:
Fight those who do not believe in Allah nor in the Last Day, and do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, and do not practice the religion of truth, of those who have been given the Book [i.e. Jews and Christians], until they pay the jizya [tribute paid as compensation] readily and are disgraced.
Within Islamic polity, all non-Muslims who are not objects of war or slaves are considered by the sharia to be dhimmis – communities who are allowed to exist within the Dar al-Islam by virtue of surrender under the conditions set by a dhimma pact. These are the permanently conquered peoples of Islam.

I didn't say the whole land was uninhabited. Large tracts were but Jews changed that.

Do you live or have any links to the Highlands?

Look at the history of migration in that area and you'll see large numbers of Arabs moved into what's now Israel only after Jews started developing it

Are you also going to talk about the displaced Jews who were completely ethnically cleansed from Middle Eastern countries? They actually make up a higher proportion of Israeli society than Europeans who fled pogroms or survived the Holocaust.

It was the Jordanian army who started the Nakba. They told Palestinians to temporarily flee so their army could wipe out Jews. Unfortunately Jordan lost the war they started

Jews accepted peace and the partition plan. Arabs rejected it and started a war which sadly culminated in a mass displacement

Arabs that stayed make up 20% of the population of Israel and work in all parts of society including the government. There's no Jews in any governments of the surrounding countries

That's the more honest position

I think you'd be surprised at the range of expertise. But I re-iterate, this is your truth not the truth.

Leave: The origins of Palestinian refugees (in their own words)

Arab refugees tell their personal stories. It was Arab leaders, Arab armies, and the Arab media that caused the Arabs to flee and become refugees

Article about the Leave documentary on Palestinian Media Watch here

In order to solve today's immediate problem of Palestinian children starving to death, there is no point disecting the centuries of history that lead us to this point.

The bottom line is that we have 2 groups of people who both want to survive, and who both deserve to survive. They both call that land home. The only resolution is a 2 state solution. To continue to insist of displacing millions of people is to support a war crime.

You're right. There should be peace for everyone. How do you propose to solve the situation?

Yes, been listening. It’s horrific. Just what the world needs, another war ……

Another war started by a terrorist attack. It's awful

First Israel must immediately stop what they're doing and allow international and independent humanitarian assistance into gaza. Secondly hamas must release all hostages. Both these things can happen at the same time.

Then the hard work begins. Israel can not be allowed to control gaza. The international community must recognise Palestine as an independent state. Lines must be redrawn and gaza rebuilt. The international community need to be allowed to control this transition. Israeli settlers must be expelled from Palestinian land with the land and buildings returned to Palestinians

That is where it should begin.

Jesus. You haven't mentioned Hamas once in here. You're delusional

Jesus. You have. I'm sorry. I'm taking myself off the internet for today.

Must admit I've never known a professional historian do that and I've read a lot of history books as have a History degree 😂