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Conflict in the Middle East

Please someone make it stop now

300 replies

Bellahadthese · 03/05/2025 18:37

It's heartbreaking
The gaunt, haunted images of children who are being starved to death, the amputees, the orphans, the women who used ivf to have a child that was blown to bits, the 40 newborns left to starve to death in neonatal ward
The hospitals bombed
Charity kitchens and bakeries bombed
Aid workers bombed
Tents bombs
Schools bombed
No universities left
Nothing left
I don't want to hear ooh but Israel has a right to exist
NO state that behaves like this has a right to exist
How can anyone justify Israel's stance?
This didn't start on Oct 7
This isn't about hostages
This is about human rights and why you think it's okay for Palestinians not to have any
I was a kid when Band Aid came about and remember how we raised money for Ethiopia
The fact that this is a man-made famine is abhorrent
I know there are good people in Israel- none in government sadly- but the West has blood on its hands for allowing this slaughter
Be honest you don't think that Palestinians are human do you that's why you don't care
I will never believe the western lie of democracy or human rights or freedom of speech again
It's all a big fat lie

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Twiglets1 · 07/05/2025 10:37

sualipa · 07/05/2025 08:16

The truth is, Jews were generally treated better under the Ottoman Empire—and certainly better than in Europe, where many of Israel's current descendants originate and you can't just forcibly expel hundreds of thousands of indigenous people form their lands and expect no resistance. No person, people or culture accepts that. 1948 wasn't a simply hostile act out of a clear blue sky.

Jews were generally treated relatively well in the Ottoman Empire compared to their experiences in many parts of Europe during the same time periods. Here's an overview of their treatment and status:

1. Legal and Social Status

Jews, along with Christians, were classified as dhimmi (protected non-Muslim communities) under Islamic law. This meant they were granted freedom of religion, autonomy in community affairs, and protection in return for paying the jizya* (a special tax for non-Muslims).
While they were second-class citizens* and subject to some social and legal restrictions (e.g., not bearing arms, limitations in public roles), they were allowed to practice their religion, run their own schools and courts, and manage internal community matters.

2. Welcoming of Sephardic Jews

In 1492, the Ottoman Empire famously welcomed Sephardic Jews expelled from Spain during the Spanish Inquisition. Sultan Bayezid II* invited them to settle in the empire, recognizing their skills and economic value.
These Jews settled in cities like Istanbul, Salonica (Thessaloniki), and Izmir*, and contributed significantly to trade, finance, medicine, and diplomacy.

3. Economic and Cultural Contributions

Jews were active in commerce, crafts, and medicine. Some held roles as court physicians, diplomats, or financial advisors.
Jewish communities developed rich religious, linguistic (especially Ladino, a Judeo-Spanish language), and cultural traditions under Ottoman rule.

4. Instances of Discrimination and Tension

While the general treatment was tolerant, Jews occasionally faced discrimination, local hostility, or blood libel accusations, especially in the 19th century.
The decline of the empire and rising nationalism sometimes led to tension between ethnic and religious groups, including Jews.

5. Tanzimat Reforms (1839–1876)

These reforms aimed at modernizing the empire and included moves toward equality for all subjects, including Jews and Christians.
Jews gained increased rights in education, political representation, and civil status during this period.

In summary, Jews in the Ottoman Empire were treated better than in many contemporary European societies, enjoyed religious and communal autonomy, and contributed meaningfully to the empire’s life, even if they faced certain systemic restrictions.

Edited

What source did you get that from @sualipa ?

HelenHen · 07/05/2025 10:52

dairydebris · 07/05/2025 10:18

Jesus. You have. I'm sorry. I'm taking myself off the internet for today.

It's OK, I'll accept that. We've all done it!

Any other comments on my post?

PollyPaintsFlowers · 07/05/2025 11:11

HelenHen · 07/05/2025 10:13

First Israel must immediately stop what they're doing and allow international and independent humanitarian assistance into gaza. Secondly hamas must release all hostages. Both these things can happen at the same time.

Then the hard work begins. Israel can not be allowed to control gaza. The international community must recognise Palestine as an independent state. Lines must be redrawn and gaza rebuilt. The international community need to be allowed to control this transition. Israeli settlers must be expelled from Palestinian land with the land and buildings returned to Palestinians

That is where it should begin.

And leave Hamas in power, who don't recognise the existence or validity of Israel and who have promised to carry out further massacres? The same Hamas who are stockpiling all the aid and selling it instead of distributing it for free as it's meant? Who kill any Palestinian who tries to stop them?

Who's going to control Gaza? Hamas? They've already said they don't bear any responsibility to Gazan civilians, they say it's up to the UN and Israel.

Gaza was built, but Hamas focused on building tunnels and firing rockets at Israel instead of running it. All building and governance was relegated to NGOs.

Which international community? The group lead by Egypt? They're demanding Hamas step down. Hamas are refusing.

Settlers were removed from Gaza in the hope it would bring peace. Look how that worked out.

No, that's not a viable solution is it

Mylegishangingoff · 07/05/2025 11:26

And leave Hamas in power, who don't recognise the existence or validity of Israel and who have promised to carry out further massacres?

To be fair this could be said for Israel too. They refuse to recognise the existence of Palestine, have carried out multiple massacres and are merrily ethnically cleansing the area. I know what everyone says Israel is a democracy and the people can vote for different but the problem is that they don't, they just vote more and more extremists. What can be done there? Massive sanctions on Israel until they deradicalise? Because something has to be done, the words coming out the mouths of their elected politicians are terrifying and except for a few small protests there has been no push back on these plans because of the effect they will have on Palestinians. Israel needs a huge overhaul on so many levels and it looks like they will have to be forced into it because the want isn't going to come from within.

HelenHen · 07/05/2025 11:45

PollyPaintsFlowers · 07/05/2025 11:11

And leave Hamas in power, who don't recognise the existence or validity of Israel and who have promised to carry out further massacres? The same Hamas who are stockpiling all the aid and selling it instead of distributing it for free as it's meant? Who kill any Palestinian who tries to stop them?

Who's going to control Gaza? Hamas? They've already said they don't bear any responsibility to Gazan civilians, they say it's up to the UN and Israel.

Gaza was built, but Hamas focused on building tunnels and firing rockets at Israel instead of running it. All building and governance was relegated to NGOs.

Which international community? The group lead by Egypt? They're demanding Hamas step down. Hamas are refusing.

Settlers were removed from Gaza in the hope it would bring peace. Look how that worked out.

No, that's not a viable solution is it

I did not give all the answers. I said that's a start. I do not suggest leaving hamas in power and I would not suggest that.. nor would anyone who wishes to be taken seriously.

So you can get down off your high horse. Stop being so enraged by what I didn't say and address what I actually said.

I also did not say anything about letting Egypt be in charge. Please read my post again and comment on what I actually said, not what I didn't.

PollyPaintsFlowers · 07/05/2025 11:52

Mylegishangingoff · 07/05/2025 11:26

And leave Hamas in power, who don't recognise the existence or validity of Israel and who have promised to carry out further massacres?

To be fair this could be said for Israel too. They refuse to recognise the existence of Palestine, have carried out multiple massacres and are merrily ethnically cleansing the area. I know what everyone says Israel is a democracy and the people can vote for different but the problem is that they don't, they just vote more and more extremists. What can be done there? Massive sanctions on Israel until they deradicalise? Because something has to be done, the words coming out the mouths of their elected politicians are terrifying and except for a few small protests there has been no push back on these plans because of the effect they will have on Palestinians. Israel needs a huge overhaul on so many levels and it looks like they will have to be forced into it because the want isn't going to come from within.

Hello Leg ❤️ I see you're doing your Israel whataboutery again. Maybe you can share your ideas on the other points I raised and then we can have a discussion in good faith instead of just focusing on Israel all the time

Mylegishangingoff · 07/05/2025 12:02

This reply has been deleted

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LookingForRecommendation · 07/05/2025 12:13

Odras · 03/05/2025 21:20

It’s heartbreaking. Between this, Trump, the rise of the far right generally it does feel like the world is taking a turn into darker times. I do what is within my control, attending fundraisers and solidarity events. I’ve met some Palestinian refugees lately through English conversation volunteer work I do and I’ve been helping them out in various ways to help them settle in. Just filling out forms and stuff that is difficult when you are just learning English,

Anyway, small things but it helps to do something positive and to meet others doing the same.

Edited

Hamas are far right.

Odras · 07/05/2025 12:42

LookingForRecommendation · 07/05/2025 12:13

Hamas are far right.

I think far right politics and Islamic fundamentalism are two different things: but both are bad. But Hamas are a recognised terrorist group so not what I’m talking about here.

By the rise of the far right I’m specifically referring to internationally recognised far right political parties that are gaining more power and winning more votes in democratic countries.

PollyPaintsFlowers · 07/05/2025 13:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

And yet here you are replying. Feel free to scroll on by Leg 😉

Bourbonbonbon · 07/05/2025 13:23

OppsUpsSide · 04/05/2025 23:38

7/10 started this war, it was an attack on civilian men, women and children. I would hope, if that happened where I live, my government would respond.
I don’t have an opposition to Jews having a homeland so that may be a sticking point for you.
I am very suspicious of Hamas propaganda, because propaganda is so easily understood as a mechanism of war, what they are doing is not new but the mechanism is and the way it can reach a ripe audience is.
I find myself unable to side with a cause that kills and rapes civilians including young children, whatever the cause. This is not specific to Hamas and Israel, I lived through the Troubles and had regular bomb drills etc during my childhood and school years.
I will admit, I will, when the chips are down, side with Jews over Muslims due to religious and cultural ideals. And that impacts my views.
Despite this, I have had many Islamic friends, i know that Islam has many different ideological strands, it is specifically politicised Islam that I am against. I don’t think it is a core part of their religion ideologically but socially right now, and for decades, it has been. I do not support Islamists. I do not believe that Islamist ideals are the true reflection of Muslims in any area. I am given to understand (through SM so up for debate) that some Palestinians have protested against Hamas. I hope this is true but am wary given the history of that area and how content is manufactured But equally the Muslims that I have known are not represented by the terrorists shown in Hamas propaganda or the protestors on the streets of the UK.
Either way, according to some my rational is racist. So be it.

It's just amazing the way you are so preoccupied with your views that there is not one word left over for the atrocities the op describes.

PollyPaintsFlowers · 07/05/2025 13:46

HelenHen · 07/05/2025 11:45

I did not give all the answers. I said that's a start. I do not suggest leaving hamas in power and I would not suggest that.. nor would anyone who wishes to be taken seriously.

So you can get down off your high horse. Stop being so enraged by what I didn't say and address what I actually said.

I also did not say anything about letting Egypt be in charge. Please read my post again and comment on what I actually said, not what I didn't.

I'm not enraged, I don't know what gave that impression.

You said the international community need to control the situation and I highlighted that Egypt and other countries in the region, an international community, have tried that, they tried to come up with a day after plan for Gaza, for governance and the rebuilding of it, but short of forcibly removing Hamas themselves it seems to be a non-starter.

I absolutely agree with you that Hamas staying in power is an impossibility. They appear to be out of friends in the region, the Palestinian Authority have called them sons of dogs and told them to surrender and bugger off and Palestinians are rising up against them. Reading some Palestinian accounts on social media recently, I've found even before 7/10 they were unpopular, now they're actively hated. Yet they're hanging on like leeches.

LookingForRecommendation · 07/05/2025 13:55

Odras · 07/05/2025 12:42

I think far right politics and Islamic fundamentalism are two different things: but both are bad. But Hamas are a recognised terrorist group so not what I’m talking about here.

By the rise of the far right I’m specifically referring to internationally recognised far right political parties that are gaining more power and winning more votes in democratic countries.

Edited

If the left were less preoccupied in promoting the interests of Islamic fundamentalism, maybe that wouldn’t be happening.

HelenHen · 07/05/2025 14:19

PollyPaintsFlowers · 07/05/2025 13:46

I'm not enraged, I don't know what gave that impression.

You said the international community need to control the situation and I highlighted that Egypt and other countries in the region, an international community, have tried that, they tried to come up with a day after plan for Gaza, for governance and the rebuilding of it, but short of forcibly removing Hamas themselves it seems to be a non-starter.

I absolutely agree with you that Hamas staying in power is an impossibility. They appear to be out of friends in the region, the Palestinian Authority have called them sons of dogs and told them to surrender and bugger off and Palestinians are rising up against them. Reading some Palestinian accounts on social media recently, I've found even before 7/10 they were unpopular, now they're actively hated. Yet they're hanging on like leeches.

Meanwhile the Palestinians are a bit preoccupied with trying not to die. Unfortunately they don't have time to stage the uprising that would satisfy you. They are not here for your revenge or to humiliate hamas. You cannot punish these people.

Also, again though... this did not start on 7/10. Israel thinks it can just bulldoze gaza and kill everything in its way. Israel is behaving as it has always done.

PollyPaintsFlowers · 07/05/2025 14:20

LookingForRecommendation · 07/05/2025 13:55

If the left were less preoccupied in promoting the interests of Islamic fundamentalism, maybe that wouldn’t be happening.

I don't think there's a better issue that highlights just how politics is a horseshoe rather than a straight line than Jew hatred.

There's definitely links with the far left and Islamism. But Islamism has much in common with Nazism in its desire to kill Jews. This week I heard of an incident where an Islamist in Britain said that Jews need to be exterminated so Muslims can rise. How very master race of him 😏

PollyPaintsFlowers · 07/05/2025 14:26

HelenHen · 07/05/2025 14:19

Meanwhile the Palestinians are a bit preoccupied with trying not to die. Unfortunately they don't have time to stage the uprising that would satisfy you. They are not here for your revenge or to humiliate hamas. You cannot punish these people.

Also, again though... this did not start on 7/10. Israel thinks it can just bulldoze gaza and kill everything in its way. Israel is behaving as it has always done.

Really? I wasn't aware of any armed conflict before October 7th. And even if there was, it certainly didn't help matters for the Palestinians did it

And on the contrary, there have been hundreds, if not thousands at this point, of brave Palestinians risking death to protest against Hamas, cursing them and telling them to get out. Hamas have murdered a number of them, yet still they're protesting.

A mayor of a town in Gaza filmed a video of himself denouncing Hamas and calling for peace with Israel.

LookingForRecommendation · 07/05/2025 14:33

PollyPaintsFlowers · 07/05/2025 14:20

I don't think there's a better issue that highlights just how politics is a horseshoe rather than a straight line than Jew hatred.

There's definitely links with the far left and Islamism. But Islamism has much in common with Nazism in its desire to kill Jews. This week I heard of an incident where an Islamist in Britain said that Jews need to be exterminated so Muslims can rise. How very master race of him 😏

I agree. Even if India decided to level Pakistan tomorrow, we wouldn’t see the same level of protest and outrage as they’re not Jewish.

SisterTeatime · 07/05/2025 14:33

HelenHen · 07/05/2025 09:29

In order to solve today's immediate problem of Palestinian children starving to death, there is no point disecting the centuries of history that lead us to this point.

The bottom line is that we have 2 groups of people who both want to survive, and who both deserve to survive. They both call that land home. The only resolution is a 2 state solution. To continue to insist of displacing millions of people is to support a war crime.

History helps with perspective though. And while you yourself have invoked a historical perspective by pointing out that ‘this didn’t start on 7/10’, as pp have said, this war did - none of us can have it both ways, or cherry pick only the bits that suit our own entrenched positions.

Even a little knowledge about the Ottoman Empire, the history of Jews in Europe, the wars in the Middle East in the last century, Israel’s electoral system, is helpful in gaining more understanding of the current situation.

I think trying to learn, and to challenge our beliefs/prejudices/emotional responses is helpful.

PollyPaintsFlowers · 07/05/2025 14:37

LookingForRecommendation · 07/05/2025 14:33

I agree. Even if India decided to level Pakistan tomorrow, we wouldn’t see the same level of protest and outrage as they’re not Jewish.

Have you seen this from Andrew Fox? He's a war analyst and used to be a lecturer at Sandringham. He's written a couple of reports on the misinformation put out by Gaza and has also commented on media bias

Please someone make it stop now
quantumbutterfly · 07/05/2025 14:40

PollyPaintsFlowers · 07/05/2025 14:37

Have you seen this from Andrew Fox? He's a war analyst and used to be a lecturer at Sandringham. He's written a couple of reports on the misinformation put out by Gaza and has also commented on media bias

Did you mean Sandhurst? (Though I know the royals have a slew of top level advisors so you may be right)

Ferretedaway · 07/05/2025 14:48

Why don’t Hamas want it to stop?

Because they clearly stated they will repeat 7/10 until they have obliterated Jews.

HelenHen · 07/05/2025 15:39

PollyPaintsFlowers · 07/05/2025 14:20

I don't think there's a better issue that highlights just how politics is a horseshoe rather than a straight line than Jew hatred.

There's definitely links with the far left and Islamism. But Islamism has much in common with Nazism in its desire to kill Jews. This week I heard of an incident where an Islamist in Britain said that Jews need to be exterminated so Muslims can rise. How very master race of him 😏

One extremist SAID something hateful and illegal... and you equate that with Israel ACTUALLY killing tens of thousands and trying to exterminate Palestine in front of the world?

No sorry, get a grip!

HelenHen · 07/05/2025 15:42

PollyPaintsFlowers · 07/05/2025 14:26

Really? I wasn't aware of any armed conflict before October 7th. And even if there was, it certainly didn't help matters for the Palestinians did it

And on the contrary, there have been hundreds, if not thousands at this point, of brave Palestinians risking death to protest against Hamas, cursing them and telling them to get out. Hamas have murdered a number of them, yet still they're protesting.

A mayor of a town in Gaza filmed a video of himself denouncing Hamas and calling for peace with Israel.

You weren't aware of, what?

There have also been thousands of brave Israelis speaking out against their extremist government, cursing them and telling them to get out.

LookingForRecommendation · 07/05/2025 15:43

HelenHen · 07/05/2025 15:39

One extremist SAID something hateful and illegal... and you equate that with Israel ACTUALLY killing tens of thousands and trying to exterminate Palestine in front of the world?

No sorry, get a grip!

Hamas and all their followers would be very happy to exterminate Israel and Israelis given half a chance and you know it.

HelenHen · 07/05/2025 15:47

SisterTeatime · 07/05/2025 14:33

History helps with perspective though. And while you yourself have invoked a historical perspective by pointing out that ‘this didn’t start on 7/10’, as pp have said, this war did - none of us can have it both ways, or cherry pick only the bits that suit our own entrenched positions.

Even a little knowledge about the Ottoman Empire, the history of Jews in Europe, the wars in the Middle East in the last century, Israel’s electoral system, is helpful in gaining more understanding of the current situation.

I think trying to learn, and to challenge our beliefs/prejudices/emotional responses is helpful.

Talking about the Israeli oppression of palestinians immediately leading up to 7/10 is not the same as going back hundreds of years to disect history. And no THIS war did not start on 7/10.

But either way talking about the ottomans will not stop Israeli from committing their war crimes and genocide that they are doing NOW.

Even the tories are saying they've gone too far... and that's really saying something

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