Israeli movements against Settlements?

[hareclive]

yesterday I had a thread deleted from the Chat section because of inflammatory negative generalisations that I made about Israelis in my opening post. the post was to discuss Louis Theroux s documentary on The Settlers.

there were claims on the thread that the Settlers of nationalist extremists and that not all Israelis support Settlements. from my POV all the Israeli spokespeople and voices I have seen and heard, DO support Settlements. it is my understanding that the vast majority of Israelis support Settlements? I think it isn't accurate to say that it isn't representative of Israelis? DW was an elected mayor and is nominated for a Nobel prize by Israeli university professors so she isn't considered a nutter by mainstream Israelis as far as I can see

other comments on the thread suggested that both sides are as bad as each other. when I tried to explore this I was given a link to an attack on an Israeli family from 2011. but what I can't find is any evidence that it is commonplace for Palestinians to want to remove all Israelis from the land. there is no national movement to do this. the spokespeople for Palestinians just talk about living in peace and having the occupation removed

tldr: I'm genuinely interested in hearing about Israeli opposition to the Settlements and occupation. and understanding what the mainstream Israeli POV is on this? because from the outside it does look like nationalistic religious extremism, at this point

Exactly.

Ukraine has not held an election during wartime and yet somehow only Hamas is only criticised? This isn’t a chess game where it’s “Hamas first” even with the absence of Hamas, it doesn’t stop Israel’s illegal presence in Occupied Palestinian Territory. It doesn’t stop the checkpoints and the targeting of journalists etc. does it? Even when Hamas aren’t in the West Bank, it doesn’t prevent innocent civilians from losing their lives inside their own homes. There isn’t any justification. But sure Hamas first. As though this will somehow prevent Israel’s genocidal actions and somehow Netyanhu will continue to evade the ICC for his war crimes. Drones attacking residential properties to maximise damage cannot be blamed solely on Hamas. Will homes stop being bulldozed once Hamas leave? Will the checkpoints magically vanish out of thin air? Or perhaps it’s time to admit to even with the absence of Hamas, Palestinians will continue to live in an apartheid state.

It is very interesting that access to military records to the first years of Israel’s military rule over Palestinians in Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza is often denied. There isn’t any used denying that there was historic abuse and somehow it must be Hamas’s fault. When there has been decades of distrust and clear human rights violations and illegal expansion of territory in Israel etc. It can’t just simply be a matter of “Hamas first”.

This is quite an unhinged post.

Ukraine's constitution doesn't allow elections during war time, but even so, what's the relevance? Would you prefer we not criticize Hamas? Surely not?

All of the above, checkpoints, homes being bulldozed etc would have to stop as part of a peace process yes, which would I assume happen in stages.

That peace process can't start with Hamas in power. So yes, they have to go. What's to argue with?

Israel can get rid of Netanyahu next year if it wishes. What can Gazan Palestinians do? Hamas are literally out on the streets murdering dissenters!

You sound like you're furious with Israel for doing something you believe it might do in the future. I prefer to have belief that there's hope once the extremists are out of power.

OK then. Just substitute Hamas for Fatah, Black September or any other Palestinian leadership that has favored violence rather than talking to achieve its political aims. Same shit, different name.

Why is there the assumption that Netanyahu being voted out will automatically mean a more moderate leader will come in his place? Netanyahu is not the only extremist politician in Israel and there's just as good a chance that someone just as extreme will replace him. If Trump goes tomorrow are we assuming a more moderate will take over? Highly unlikely - America will most probably get Vance who is in my opinion is worst.

Ukraine hasn’t held an election during wartime but Hamas hasn’t held an election since 2006 when they were voted in.

Do you really think the two things are the same @ExitPursuedByAPolarBear ?

Why can’t Hamas be criticised without someone like you rushing in to defend them? Would you like to see the same government in power since 2006 in your country with no opportunity to vote in nearly 20 years?

She's asking to be pointed in the direction of information which will allow her to take an informed view. Why wouldn't you provide that, if there is any?

And you are making a claim by implication - your claim is that the view 'few Israelis object to the Settlements' is incorrect.

Despite elections in Israel, Netanyahu has been in power for a total of seventeen years. Just about as long as Hamas has. Hamas has held onto power without holding elections. Netanyahu has been voted in numerous times.

Good points.

Mainly hope, I guess.

Israeli friends saying he's not popular.

But given the rise of nationalism in lots of places you're right and it could go the other way.

The world feels like a dark place at the moment and I sometimes wonder if it's always been like this but I just wasn't aware.

How so? It makes perfect sense to ask. When exactly are the elections meant to even held? Even without Hamas in power, Israel was already illegally expanding so no I don’t expect the absence of Hamas to stop the IDF and Israeli government from bulldozing homes, assaulting people at checkpoints etc. @dairydebris Please stop casting aspersions. I am not furious, but I am sad when I see any loss of life.

I feel sad when I see unwarranted acts of violence. When I read about the settler violence and a village being raided for no apparent reason I was so shocked and dismayed. When I saw a recent tweet by Yuval, the Israeli co-director of the documentary, No Other Land, I couldn’t believe it at first.

When I saw that 25 year old Fatima’s dreams of exhibiting her photos abroad might stop simply because she chose to participate in an upcoming documentary, Your Soul on Your Hand and Walk, my heart shattered. Fatima was killed alongside her family. She was so young. She wanted to exhibit her photos in an exhibition called the Story Remains. The title seems so poignant.

So no I’m not furious. I am sad that the depth of pain and destruction of innocent life is somehow dismissed simply by saying “Hamas first”. I believe there can be peaceful coexistence. I believe that there can be collaboration and No Other Land showed just that.

I don’t think removing Hamas will prevent the Israeli military from their wanton acts of destruction and abuse etc. There needs to be more transparency and accountability. The Hamas and Israeli leadership should be investigated by the ICC. So no it’s not simply “Hamas first”.

@Twiglets1 Someone like you rushing to defend them? Someone like me? What on earth does that mean? When have I defended Hamas? I simply pointed out that Ukraine has not had any elections during wartime. How does that defend Hamas? It’s very obvious that Israel has been illegally expanding way before 2006. That is not a defence of Hamas. Criticising Israel and the IDF does not mean it somehow is a defence of Hamas. To even think that is very bizarre.

Why isn't it as simple as Hamas should go? Do you actually want them to stay? Why shouldn't Hamas surrender, hand over hostages, accept PA authority over Gaza, make the first step towards a meaningful peace process?

Wouldn't that be better for the civilians in Gaza? You think they are better off under Hamas than the PA?

I can't think of any single one reason for Hamas to stay. Can you?

For those of you hasn’t Yuval Abraham’s tweet in March. He wrote this: קבוצת מתנחלים תקפה את הבית של חמדן בלל, שביים איתי את הסרט אין ארץ אחרת שזכה באוסקר. הכו אותו בראש ובכל הגוף. בעוד פצוע ומדמם, חיילים נכנסו לאמבולנס שהזמין, ועצרו אותו. מאז נעלם ולא ברור אם הוא מקבל טיפול רפואי ומה קורה לו.

This is the translation: A group of settlers attacked the home of Hamdan Bilal, who co-directed the Oscar-winning film No Other Land with me. They beat him in the head and all over his body. While wounded and bleeding, soldiers entered the ambulance he had called and arrested him. He has since disappeared and it is unclear whether he is receiving medical treatment or what is happening to him.

Wow. In the nicest possible way I can ask. What part of this hard to understand? The Hamas and Israeli leadership should be investigated by the ICC. So no it’s not simply “Hamas first”. Somehow it seems only Hamas that should be criticised but not the Israeli leadership and its military.

Edited to add: If Israel does not agree to stick to border plans and does not agree to a two-state solution, even with the absence of Hamas and the return of hostages, how is it going to help the peace process if Israel continues with its annexation plans and continues to illegally expand?

Certainly that is the argument made when discussing palestians and Hamas. Although Israel’s last election wasn’t nearly 20 years ago.

It means the people who immediately come to the defence of Hamas whenever someone criticises them - they are by definition "like you" as that is exactly what you did by implying that Hamas not holding elections (since 2006!) are no worse than Ukraine who haven't held an election since being at war.

Why don't you just accept that Hamas lack of democracy is awful without immediately trying to change the subject to what the Ukraine government are doing.

It's hard to understand why you don't just say Hamas should surrender first. As in, now. Even Abbas is calling for it. Palestinian citizens are protesting for it. Why can't you say it?

Yes, Netanyahu should be investigated by the ICC. There should also be a very thorough investigation into the intelligence failures that made October 7th possible. And his corruption charges should also be allowed to proceed through the courts. As a lot of us have repeatly said on here, all extremists are abhorrent, including Israeli ones. Speaking for myself the longer the Israeli government gives voice to these extreme voices the more moral high ground it loses, and I don't believe it has much left. There's near constant critism for the current administration and their current direction.

Why does any of that mean Hamas shouldn't surrender and hand over the hostages and running of Gaza right now? Do you think they should stay?

@Twiglets1 I can easily criticise both Hamas and the IDF but it seems as though only Hamas is the only focus when it comes to the lack of democracy. I don’t think the absence of Hamas will miraculously stop Israel’s annexation plans. Israel has not agreed to a two-state solution so even if Hamas were to not exist, would Israel stick to the border lines? Would villages stop being bulldozed? Will the olive trees that have been burnt and farmland destroyed and illegal settlements that have been created, will all that be returned? So that’s why I think both the Israeli and Hamas leadership should be investigated by the ICC. And I don’t think it’s simple as it being “Hamas first”.

The IDF gets loads more criticism on these boards than Hamas, including from you. So if you could easily criticise both sides, why don't you?

@dairydebris Do you think Israel will stop if Hamas surrenders? Or do you think they will still claim that Hamas is in some random village in the guise to destroy it, bomb residential buildings etc. and that Hamas, according to them, is still there? It’s not a matter of Hamas staying or leaving. There will still be illegal settlements. So now it seems to me that to keep on asking if Hamas should stay is being deliberately disingenuous because I never said they should stay. It’s not up to me decide. The Israeli law itself does not provide adequate provisions for Palestinians. They are allowed to be legally detained for days on end by the Israeli military according to Israeli law.

@Twiglets1 You’re not making any sense. Why don’t I do what exactly? Please explain what I am meant to be doing.

What is so hard to understand about "you could easily criticise both sides, why don't you?"

To break it down even more, why do not criticise Hamas on here?

I think if Hamas surrendered, handed over governance of Gaza to the PA, and returned the hostages then a few things would happen-

-there would be immense international pressure for an immediate ceasefire. With all war aims 'achieved' it would be very very difficult for Israel to continue the carnage. This would be a good thing, no?

-I think there would actually be a ceasefire, yes. Even if you don't believe they would actually ceasefire, surely you could agree that the chances of a ceasefire if Hamas surrendered are higher? That's a good thing, no?

-the actual day to day lives of Gazans would immediately improve. More aid would get in. Less bombs would be dropped. They wouldn't be under curfew or be in danger of being murdered for protesting. This is desirable, no?

-the hostages could be back with their families. Good thing, yes?

-it would get the ball rolling on a peace process that would most likely involve a lot less violence all round, the pulling back of settlements, etc. Even if you don't believe Israel would do all the good things you'd like, there's at least a higher chance of it while the 2 sides are not at actual war, no? Good thing, no?

I cannot understand why you wouldn't want these things?

All these things start with Hamas fucking off. They've commited to repeating October 7 again and again. Israel have commited to destroying them for this reason ( and to save Netanyahu's political skin ).

Why on earth shouldn't Hamas just end it?

@Twiglets1 So you’re telling me that, in your eyes, I am not criticising Hamas enough? I think it’s simplistic to only criticise Hamas because it isn’t a sovereign state. Israel is. And yet Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian territory, continuing to annex Palestine etc., there has been many displaced Palestinians, homes destroyed, lives lost and Israel has been doing so for decades without the existence of Hamas. So no I don’t think it’s enough to simply criticise Hamas as though it’s Hamas and nothing else that has caused death and destruction. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would realise that.