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Conflict in the Middle East
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105
SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 20/04/2025 15:04

PollyPaintsFlowers · 20/04/2025 14:52

Is this report also fake and the experts who worked on it propagandists? Hamas telling porky pies

It lacks evidence
https://aoav.org.uk/2024/flawed-critique-how-andrew-foxs-report-for-the-henry-jackson-society-on-gaza-death-toll-lacks-evidence-for-key-claims/

“Criticism of MoH data, something that both of us have done, is necessary and can help to improve their quality. As such, the Henry Jackson Society’s report by Andrew Fox raises legitimate concerns about the reliability of Gaza MoH casualty figures and media reporting on them.
However, a closer analysis of the report’s key findings reveals significant flaws in its evidence and reasoning. While it identifies instances of misclassification and questionable claims by the MoH, these errors appear to be more indicative of random mistakes than systematic manipulation. Furthermore, the small number of errors identified is insufficient to meaningfully shift overall casualty demographics.
Fox’s argument that media outlets have uncritically echoed MoH claims is valid in part, particularly regarding misreported death tolls and the attribution of responsibility for certain attacks. His attempt to reconcile MoH death counts with IDF claims of militant fatalities is fraught with methodological issues and unsupported assumptions. Without greater transparency from both the MoH and IDF, such reconciliations remain speculative at best.
Ultimately, while the report underscores the importance of media scrutiny and the verification of war casualty figures, its own selective presentation of evidence undermines its most serious claims. Balanced reporting requires scepticism toward all parties in conflict, and while the media should critically assess MoH data, the same standard should apply to IDF casualty claims.
The truth, as is often the case in wartime, is far more complex than Fox’s report allows.”

Flawed critique: how Andrew Fox's report on Gaza death toll for the Henry Jackson Society lacks evidence for key claims - AOAV

A review of Andrew Fox’s Henry Jackson Society report on Gaza death toll figures finds limited evidence for claims of MoH data manipulation, highlighting errors as random rather than systematic, and somewhat more evidence for media complicity.

https://aoav.org.uk/2024/flawed-critique-how-andrew-foxs-report-for-the-henry-jackson-society-on-gaza-death-toll-lacks-evidence-for-key-claims/

findingnibbles · 20/04/2025 15:04

PollyPaintsFlowers · 20/04/2025 15:02

A hate march. Guess the hate marchers didn't like seeing Hamas being called out as terrorists

Yet you said you've seen hundreds of hate marchers holding anti-hamas placards. Have you found any evidence yet?

You must have me mixed up with someone else, I haven’t said that.

So this was an organised hate march? What was the expressed purpose of the march?

PollyPaintsFlowers · 20/04/2025 15:06

findingnibbles · 20/04/2025 15:04

You must have me mixed up with someone else, I haven’t said that.

So this was an organised hate march? What was the expressed purpose of the march?

Free Palestine apparently. Although at the moment it looks like Palestinians are going to have to free themselves as western protestors are too preoccupied criticising Israel

PollyPaintsFlowers · 20/04/2025 15:11

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 20/04/2025 15:04

It lacks evidence
https://aoav.org.uk/2024/flawed-critique-how-andrew-foxs-report-for-the-henry-jackson-society-on-gaza-death-toll-lacks-evidence-for-key-claims/

“Criticism of MoH data, something that both of us have done, is necessary and can help to improve their quality. As such, the Henry Jackson Society’s report by Andrew Fox raises legitimate concerns about the reliability of Gaza MoH casualty figures and media reporting on them.
However, a closer analysis of the report’s key findings reveals significant flaws in its evidence and reasoning. While it identifies instances of misclassification and questionable claims by the MoH, these errors appear to be more indicative of random mistakes than systematic manipulation. Furthermore, the small number of errors identified is insufficient to meaningfully shift overall casualty demographics.
Fox’s argument that media outlets have uncritically echoed MoH claims is valid in part, particularly regarding misreported death tolls and the attribution of responsibility for certain attacks. His attempt to reconcile MoH death counts with IDF claims of militant fatalities is fraught with methodological issues and unsupported assumptions. Without greater transparency from both the MoH and IDF, such reconciliations remain speculative at best.
Ultimately, while the report underscores the importance of media scrutiny and the verification of war casualty figures, its own selective presentation of evidence undermines its most serious claims. Balanced reporting requires scepticism toward all parties in conflict, and while the media should critically assess MoH data, the same standard should apply to IDF casualty claims.
The truth, as is often the case in wartime, is far more complex than Fox’s report allows.”

Where does it say it lacks evidence?

findingnibbles · 20/04/2025 15:15

PollyPaintsFlowers · 20/04/2025 15:06

Free Palestine apparently. Although at the moment it looks like Palestinians are going to have to free themselves as western protestors are too preoccupied criticising Israel

Ah right. Was this one march in particular?

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 20/04/2025 15:17

@PollyPaintsFlowers
”Where does it say it lacks evidence?”

In the title!
how to say you didn’t read a word without saying it…🤣

PollyPaintsFlowers · 20/04/2025 15:18

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice I mean it says there's no evidence that the inflated figures were deliberate, they still were though

And I'm unconvinced if wasn't deliberate. Hamas have already lied about so much, blaming Israel for the explosion at the Al-Ahlia hospital when it was one of their misfired rockets that destroyed. Claiming that they didn't mean to target civilians even though their combatants live-streamed it themselves on their go-pros, that they didn't rape anyone even though there's loads of eyewitness testimony etc... They're fighting a propaganda war, they'll lie about anything

PollyPaintsFlowers · 20/04/2025 15:22

findingnibbles · 20/04/2025 15:15

Ah right. Was this one march in particular?

That happened at one march, but it's not the only march it's happened at. I've seen a few videos on YouTube where hate marchers have been violent towards people with anti-hamas placards and there was one guy who got physically assaulted by three hate marchers because he was wearing a t-shirt saying Hamas are terrorists.

Have you found footage yet of hate marchers calling out Hamas? You said you'd seen hundreds

PollyPaintsFlowers · 20/04/2025 15:23

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 20/04/2025 15:17

@PollyPaintsFlowers
”Where does it say it lacks evidence?”

In the title!
how to say you didn’t read a word without saying it…🤣

Seeing as you said there was no evidence I thought the text you quoted would prove that. It didn't

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 20/04/2025 15:24

PollyPaintsFlowers · 20/04/2025 15:18

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice I mean it says there's no evidence that the inflated figures were deliberate, they still were though

And I'm unconvinced if wasn't deliberate. Hamas have already lied about so much, blaming Israel for the explosion at the Al-Ahlia hospital when it was one of their misfired rockets that destroyed. Claiming that they didn't mean to target civilians even though their combatants live-streamed it themselves on their go-pros, that they didn't rape anyone even though there's loads of eyewitness testimony etc... They're fighting a propaganda war, they'll lie about anything

No, it actually says there is no evidence the figures were ever inflated.
“The differing demographics across the two casualty recording systems evaporates in the October list and is even slightly reversed. For example, males aged 15-45 constitute, respectively, 38.8% and 38.1% of the deaths in the central and family systems.[3] The reason for this shift is unclear but its existence calls into question the idea that comparing the demographics of deaths captured by the two methodologies can illuminate the true death toll of the war.[4]”

in fact it goes on to say
“The overarching goal of the HJS report seems to be to shoehorn the IDF estimate of militants killed into MoH death totals to demonstrate that combatants constitute a large percentage of the dead. This simply does not work because the demographics of the MoH lists are incompatible with the IDF claims – there are not enough fight-age males on the MoH lists to make this argument work.”

As for lying, yeah the first casualty of war is the truth and both Hamas and IDF are guilty of it.

The casualty figures aren’t just from Hamas. They are also from international aid workers. It is also very very common for casualty figures to not be accurate given the challenges of counting the dead while under 24/7 bombardment in an active combat zone (even the so called safe areas are being attacked daily).

Civilian casualties in Gaza: Israel’s claims don’t add up - AOAV

Here we estimate that at least 74% of the 40,717 fatalities reported in Gaza are civilians, contrasting sharply with Israel's claim that half of those killed are combatants, raising serious questions about the accuracy and accountability of the IDF's s...

https://aoav.org.uk/2024/casualties-in-gaza-israels-claims-of-50-combatant-deaths-dont-add-up-at-least-74-of-the-dead-are-civilians/

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 20/04/2025 15:26

PollyPaintsFlowers · 20/04/2025 15:23

Seeing as you said there was no evidence I thought the text you quoted would prove that. It didn't

I posted the conclusion of the article. I expected you to at least read it like I read the report you posted. Obviously you are not interested in informing yourself widely and prefer an echo chamber.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 20/04/2025 15:27

PollyPaintsFlowers · 20/04/2025 15:22

That happened at one march, but it's not the only march it's happened at. I've seen a few videos on YouTube where hate marchers have been violent towards people with anti-hamas placards and there was one guy who got physically assaulted by three hate marchers because he was wearing a t-shirt saying Hamas are terrorists.

Have you found footage yet of hate marchers calling out Hamas? You said you'd seen hundreds

Ah you saw it on YouTube no chance of seeing heavily edited clips there…

findingnibbles · 20/04/2025 15:29

PollyPaintsFlowers · 20/04/2025 15:22

That happened at one march, but it's not the only march it's happened at. I've seen a few videos on YouTube where hate marchers have been violent towards people with anti-hamas placards and there was one guy who got physically assaulted by three hate marchers because he was wearing a t-shirt saying Hamas are terrorists.

Have you found footage yet of hate marchers calling out Hamas? You said you'd seen hundreds

Sorry, once again, you seem to have me mixed up with someone else.

So, which march are you referring to exactly?

It’s not really clear which march you’re talking about.

PollyPaintsFlowers · 20/04/2025 15:30

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 20/04/2025 15:27

Ah you saw it on YouTube no chance of seeing heavily edited clips there…

It wasn't edited. All that set the hate marchers off was seeing signs that said 'Hamas are terrorists' as they walked along

But if you can show some of the hundreds of hate marchers you've seen also holding banners calling out Hamas then it will show that not all hate marchers are triggered by anti-hamas sentiments

Mylegishangingoff · 20/04/2025 15:41

All this talk of 'hate marchers' has got me thinking. I've never seen 'pro Israel' protesters with banners decrying the rape and torture of Palestinians by the IDF, does that mean they are pro rape and torture? I've never seen them with banners demanding aid be let in to civillians and an end to collective punishment. That must mean they are pro starvation. I'll believe that these 'hate marchers' aren't pro these things when I see them holding signs saying so but until then I can't be convinced otherwise. I mean they even have 'counter protests' because they are so aghast that some people are decrying these things so they must be pro them.

^^ It sounds so dumb doesn't it? Yet some people are convinced they have some kind of gotcha argument by using this tactic 😴

Whatsinanamehey · 20/04/2025 15:58

Mylegishangingoff · 20/04/2025 15:41

All this talk of 'hate marchers' has got me thinking. I've never seen 'pro Israel' protesters with banners decrying the rape and torture of Palestinians by the IDF, does that mean they are pro rape and torture? I've never seen them with banners demanding aid be let in to civillians and an end to collective punishment. That must mean they are pro starvation. I'll believe that these 'hate marchers' aren't pro these things when I see them holding signs saying so but until then I can't be convinced otherwise. I mean they even have 'counter protests' because they are so aghast that some people are decrying these things so they must be pro them.

^^ It sounds so dumb doesn't it? Yet some people are convinced they have some kind of gotcha argument by using this tactic 😴

Edited

Exactly this.

Eyesopenwideawake · 20/04/2025 16:01

To all the IDF apologists on here. In the aftermath of the IRA terror campaigns on the UK mainland in the 1970's/80's would you have called for the carpet bombing of Northern Ireland, the destruction of hospitals, churches and schools on the basis that IRA members and sympathisers were present in those places and the blockade of all food supplies to the province. If not, why not? Please explain the difference.

OP posts:
OhCalmTheFuckDownMargaret · 20/04/2025 18:45

PollyPaintsFlowers · 20/04/2025 09:11

Calm down Margaret! I'm in agreement with them. Better now? 😂

Much better. Nobody on MN is so important that the BBC agree with them.

10UsernamesNotAvailableTryAnotherOne · 20/04/2025 23:12

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 20/04/2025 14:58

A few apparently like beating up female Jewish Pro-Palestinian peace protesters…

”A Jewish woman marching in support of justice for Palestinians and a ceasefire in Gaza was pushed into the pro-Israel counter protesters by a Met police officer. There she met with violence and abuse.”

”UK – On 18 May 2024, as a result of Police actions, a Jewish activist named Jessica L was assaulted by counter-protesters when she attended the pro-Palestine ‘National March for Ceasefire’ at Piccadilly Circus, London, wearing a Kippah and t-shirt with “Jews Say Ceasefire Now”.

”Counter-protesters had gathered holding Israel flags and placards with inflammatory slogans. When Jessica passed by this area on the march path, they became visibly and audibly hostile to her, shouting derogatory, misogynistic, Islamophobic and antisemitic abuse. Jessica was subjected to specific slurs such as “Kapo” and accusations of being a self-hating Jew—terms uniquely weaponized against Jewish supporters of Palestinian liberation. She also received explicit threats of violence and sexual assault.
A Met Police Liaison Officer identified Jessica as Jewish based on her attire, forcibly removed her from the main protest, and then pushed her towards the counter-protestors as he shouted at her to “get back over there”. The counter-protestors proceeded to reach across the barriers, pulled Jessica towards them by the hair, attempted to remove her kippah, struck her, spat on her, and they continued to shout misogynistic and antisemitic abuse at her.
Jessica shouted for help, but police officers failed to intervene. Eventually, she freed herself with the help of Palestine Solidarity Campaign demonstration stewards and rejoined the Ceasefire demonstration. A police officer then communicated that they wanted Jessica to leave the demonstration due to the amount of hatred and hostility she was receiving from the counter-protesters. Jessica sought to report the assault to police officers, but she was told to report it online. When she then went to make a report at a station, she was refused an in-person meeting with a supervising officer.”

https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/met-police-pushed-a-pro-palestinian-jewish-woman-into-hostile-counter-protest/

Absolutely horrendous! 😬 The poor woman! I hope she's ok.

Martymcfly24 · 22/04/2025 20:33

Thats awful @Scirocco . It says 70% of the country is under an evacuation order. This means with my very basic maths that roughly 109.5 square kilometers is available for 2.1 million people.

Like shooting fish in a barrel.

10UsernamesNotAvailableTryAnotherOne · 23/04/2025 03:47

The IDF bomb tents again. This time at Yafa School where people are sheltering.

https://x.com/AnasAlSharif0/status/1914830826174325091

Warning-this is the charred body of a small child
https://x.com/AnasAlSharif0/status/1914837389618421859

https://x.com/AnasAlSharif0/status/1914854845430800611

https://x.com/AnasAlSharif0/status/1914837389618421859

Whatsinanamehey · 24/04/2025 08:22

Am I surprised that this racist terrorist has been invited to the US?

MissyB1 · 24/04/2025 08:35

Whatsinanamehey · 24/04/2025 08:22

Am I surprised that this racist terrorist has been invited to the US?

Sadly he will fit right in with the current US Government.