To think someone has got to stop the mass killings in Gaza

[BotanicalCake]

We are back to hundreds of Gazans being killed each day after the so called ceasefire and over 50,000 now slaughtered, mostly women and children.
The bombing of hospitals, schools and 'safe zones' not being enough, they are now picking off paramedics. How much depravity is the world going to tolerate?

AIBU to suggest that the world leaders complicit in Netanyahu's genocide should all stand before the Hague?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/apr/03/the-guardian-view-on-israels-killing-of-paramedics-a-new-atrocity-in-an-unending-conflict

Oh crikey I'm out.

I have explained it. (I even underlined the word for you) .

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice
That’s because phase 2 was supposed to be negotiated during phase 1 and phase 3 negotiated during phase 2. So ofc there was no formal signed and sealed document laying out the exact terms of phase 2 or 3.

Well, quite.

However, what I said was true- Hamas had agreed that the PA would take over Gaza in phase 3 and only Israel disagreed

In your first post you said;

They did surrender already with the 3 phase ceasefire that Israel agreed...

Also what a random Hamas official Hamdan says is as unimportant as what say Herzog or Cornricus say regarding the IDF and Israel. These are not the decision makers.

But you believe everything that your Hamas official says? When do you think Hamas will disarm?

Also, if Hamas had already come to an agreement with the PA, why are there still reports like this at the end of Feb;

Senior Arab diplomats have told The Times of Israel that Hamas has indicated willingness to relinquish governing control of Gaza, but is not prepared to give up its weapons — which [a senior adviser to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas] said the PA would not accept.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/top-abbas-aide-hamas-must-step-aside-let-palestinian-authority-govern-gaza/

Yes @Martymcfly24 I know full well that some people suggest that if Hamas just release the hostages that will end the war.

You dispute it, but you never explain why. You never acknowledge that Hamas need to be destroyed in addition to the hostages being released.

Presumably you don't think they do because you seem to find it unreasonable that Natanyahu wants more than just the hostages to be released.

For a start, the IRA were not the government of Ireland.

Also, I don't think the ira wanted to wipe out the whole of the English population as hamas want to be rid of all Jews, it was more gang warfare in NI under the guise of being a political protest.

Some of them were.

I think that Hamas is an extremist group that will never settle for any kind of agreement with Israel, no matter how good it is for the Palestinian people. In fact, I think they would be quite willing to sacrifice any number of their people if they think it would help them destroy Israel.

Palestinians deserve better, but as long as they are led by these people, there is no way forward. Hamas will continue to carry out acts such as the one that kicked off this instantiation of the conflict and screw up every attempt at a negotiation or agreement, just as they always have.

You can't justify the killing of person A because some person B in the same group went out and killed someone. It doesn't matter how horrible and evil person B was, that doesn't mean that person A is fair game.

War is clearly much more complicated than that, especially this kind of war - realistically, civilians will be killed.

But what people are upset about is the perception that you and others like you believe the actions of people like the ones you are talking about mean it is ok to target people those who haven't done those things, including children. Do you really think that because Hamas has murdered infants that it is justified for Israel to target infants? Because that is what it sounds like you are saying.

Trying to call anyone who disagrees with that anti-Semitic just sounds crazy.

I don’t understand your word salad but i do know thousands of Palestinians live freely in Israel, no Israeli’s lively freely in Palestine. Hamas were voted in by the Palestinian people which gave them the opportunity to take over, they hide amongst civilians whilst committing war crimes, Palestinians have told us this and protested. Hamas killed, rapped and kidnapped. They started a war. War is ugly. Propaganda is extremely influential and Hamas will be studied in the future for the power of their propaganda rather than their plight.

They actually brokered the ceasefire. You know, the one Isreal breached.

Whether Hamas exists or not is irrelevant.
They haven't even been around since the start if what is falsely called a 'conflict ' (if that's what turfing people out of their homes is called ). Honestly, what a play on words
And Israel has been treating Palestinians worse than animals for decades
Look at the West Bank

What do you even mean by Hamas anyway , because too many Zionists talk as if Hamas is just every Palestinian man, woman and child.
And is Hamas on every side of Israel where borders have expanded at the cost of people being chucked off their land ? Is there a new victim blaming excuse for each house hold made homeless as these borders never cease to expand ?

It's not either of those things. It's about the goal of the people doing the killing. Neither the number nor the manner is really relevant.

I don't think we can say whether Hamas exists or not is irrelevant.

Netanyahu has stated that the war can only end when the hostages are released and Hamas are destroyed.

So if Hamas really wanted to stop the bloodshed they should put down their arms and agree to leave Gaza shouldn't they? And release the remaining hostages. Admit defeat (but they won't, they would rather carry on fighting to the bitter end than lose face).

Israel is committing a genocide according to the UN, Amnesty international, Human Rights Watch, and Israeli professors of Holocaust and genocide studies Prof. Omer Bartov, Prof. Raz Segal, Prof. Amos Goldstein.

It's not "people are calling it" it's teams of legal experts.

Everyone on the thread has condemned Hamas, as do I. But just for facts, Hamas has said in its charter and in a recent interview that they would lay down arms if the two state solution was implemented ie if Israel gives the Palestinians a state on 22% of what was their homeland - implemented international law, in other words. Meanwhile Netanyahu and Ben Gvir and all the other centre and right parties openly refuse the 2 state solution and have done since before Oct. 7th, they are more extreme than Hamas. Ben Gvir is a convicted domestic terrorist.

To those who keep saying "it's about Hamas and Oct. 7th" please explain the following. West Bank ruled by the Palestinian authority which renounced armed resistance 1993 and yet:

1. Save the Children issued a warning July 2023 because Israel had killed 32 unarmed Palestinian children in the West Bank that year already, after killing 34 the previous year (37 Israeli children unforgivably killed Oct. 7th several shown to be by Israeli fire)
2. Israel kidnaps 700-1000 Palestinian children (12yrs and above) puts them through military court and then in military jail with no parental/legal visits. There were 400 such children in Sept. 2023, more than all the hostages Hamas took. Majority charged with throwing stones, 147 held indefinitely on administrative detention without charge or trial

These are the sources UNICEF Child detainees OPT 2013. Israel is the only country in the world to try children in a military court and of course Palestinian children only. A 17 yr old Israeli settler who throws stones gets a civil law court with lawyers and parents present, just one example of Israel's apartheid system as found by the UN, ICJ, Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem, Yesh Din, etc etc

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.unicef.org/sop/media/1746/file/CAAC%2520Bulletin%25202013,.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjSwd_Q48KMAxWjZ0EAHTDwC2wQFnoECB4QAQ&sqi=2&usg=AOvVaw2m7EYLFlyidND_8E7TVOy7

Save the Children on the widespread abuse of Palestinian children taken hostage by Israel July 2023

https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/2023/stripped-beaten-and-blindfolded-new-research-reveals-ongoing-violence-and-abuse-of-palestinian-children-detained-by-israeli-military

And before Hamas in Gaza the following happened:
An Israeli captain emptied his rifle into a 13 yr old schoolgirl with her backpack on, one shot from a safe distance then he approached and emptied his rifle into her prone body. His own soldiers testified against him but he was acquitted of all charges.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

Before Hamas, in Gaza, an Israeli army bulldozer was held back by Rachel Corrie a brave American solidarity volunteer who was trying to stop it illegally demolishing civilians homes. After a day long stand off the soldier got fed up, drove straight over her then reversed back over her. It's all extremely well photo documented but no charges for the soldier

Before Hamas, in Gaza, Israel shot British 19yr old photography student in the head as he tried to rescue a child. Tom Hurndall's father gave an interview at the start of this genocide in which he said we should be very careful of the lying Israeli narrative that "the other side did it" because they did that in Tom's case and in many others.

Before Hamas, in the West Bank, Israel shot dead British cameraman Ian Miller.

I won’t deny that from what you say, Israel did things prior to October 7th that were very wrong. Had there been more of an international outcry about those at the time and I had been aware of them, I would have spoken up about them and condemned Israel for certain practices. Like many people, I was unaware these things were happening. Though I would like to hear both sides of the story because while locking up children absolutely sounds wrong, teenagers throwing stones with intent to harm is not an innocent activity. It was a nuanced problem that needed to be resolved through diplomatic not military intervention.

But … those things did not justify October 7th which targeted not the decision makers in Israel but innocent civilians at a music festival.

October 7th wasn’t the start of everything.. but a bloody massacre by a terrorist organisation wasn’t the way to help the Palestinian people. It has achieved the completely opposite effect of forcing people to take sides. Who seems more culpable for the deaths - the IDF or Hamas? Sorry but to me (& much of the international community it seems) the answer is Hamas.

Organisations with documented anti Israel bias that is very well known and widely discussed. Yes, they are such objective arbiters when it comes to Israel’s actions!

There are also many legal analysts who totally disagree with this stance. It’s an entirely political question at this point and pretending that one side is objectively correct in their evaluation is dishonest. This just happens to be the side you agree with.

Your description of Corrie’s death is so biased that it calls into question everything you’ve posted, frankly.

Why is their propaganda so successful? They are proscribed terrorists in the U.K.

Perhaps the stone throwing would stop if these children weren't being forced to grow up in land where they are quite literally second class citizens. If you are Palestinian and want to build a house on your own land, forget it. An Israeli that wants to build a house on that Palestinians land, sure thing. If you are a Palestinian and want to collect rainwater, forget it. If you are an Israeli and want to build a well, sure thing. If you are Palestinian and want to walk down certain streets, forget it. Israeli sure thing. Palestinian schools buldozed, can we build another, no forget about you'll just have to move. Israelis can we build a school, sure thing. And on and on it goes. Let's not forget that Israelis throw stones too, they aren't subjected to the same punishments or the same courts. What can Palestinians do about it?

Even protesting means you take your life in your hands, like a poster pointed out Rachel Corrie, just last year there was a young American woman shot in the head at a protest, Israel said it was a 'mistake'. How many Palestinians do you think this happens to that we don't hear about or who Israel say deserved it and they are automatically believed because Palestinians aren't listened to. Just look what happened when 15 aid workers were killed after all.

So you have kids growing up in what is supposed to be their land, living under different rules to Israeli kids in the same area that puts them at a huge disadvantage throughout their life, living with the constant very real threat of death if they so much as protest about it. But instead of being outraged by that we say we would like to hear both sides of the story because there could possibly be a reason why it's fair to lock up indefinitely only Palestinian children for throwing stones?

And that's why this continues and continues because people constantly look for excuses as to why it's OK to treat Palestinians this way. From the moment they are born in the West Bank they are at a disadvantage to Israeli children because of the system Israel have set up and that continues for their entire lives. But why do they hate Israel so much, it must be because it's Jewish of course!