American proposal to clear out Gaza

[Daftasabroom]

Trump is proposing to "clear out" Gaza.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2025/01/25/politics/trump-gaza-strip-jordan-egypt

So USA is actually proposing that the Gaza Strip should be cleared of Palestinians. 1.5 million people.

@Fordian the concept that there's anything special about this conflict versus any others is only driven by TikTok and antisemitism.

The UK supplies arms to the IDF, that makes it different to the other conflicts you describe.

Is it antisemitic to be against Israel's brutal suppression of the Palestinians?

American here. Trump's not kidding about Greenland. Greenland is open to becoming independent and we're open to making them a territory. Probably not a state because then they'd have to pay US taxes. Probably more like Puerto Rico, Samoa, Guam, etc. whose residents pay no federal taxes.

Trump's end goal is to get out of NATO, which is already being discussed in the Senate. If we have Greenland (we already have Alaska) we can put an "iron dome" over the US and withdraw from NATO. Making NATO countries increase expenditures to 5% of GDP is the first step. Most (all?) will fail to do so thereby abrogating the treaty. He's already withdrawn 20,000 troops from Europe with more to come, and he's only been in office for 6 days.

Europeans fail to understand how sick and tired Americans are of paying hundreds of billions of dollars a year to protect people who essentially hate us and definitely look down upon us. Yes, that's you. We know how you feel about us and we mostly feel the same way about you.

Trump won in a landslide and reducing our military commitments is a big reason why. So he's going to force y'all to pay up and develop militaries worthy of the name or learn to speak Russian.

(An aside: I'm a retired military officer. During my service I had the distinct displeasure of working with 2 UK exchange officers, supposedly the best of the best, or they wouldn't have been sent to embed with US forces. One was a drunk who took her clothes off at parties and threw herself at men, and the other was a foul-mouthed misogynist even when sober on duty. Just nasty people, both of them, very unprofessional, very work shy.)

Your alternative is to learn to speak Russian and that's not a joke. We're done. Putin is no threat to us. Hamas (getting back to the theme of the thread) is no threat to us. Denmark is no threat to us. We're done being all y'all's sugar daddy. Time to defend yourselves or perish.

"Fly in the ointment"??

If you wouldn't have that number of people in your country (and I'm assuming most people wouldn't, and Trump certainly wouldn't), don't casually suggest somewhere else takes what you won't.

(I'm aware geographically Egypt makes sense, but most people happily suggesting Egypt takes all these people wouldn't take them themselves even if they were physically nearer).

Being racist and closed off from working with other countries and societies does not confer the right to commit ethnic cleansing. It does not make it ok to facilitate mass murder.

Europeans fail to understand how sick and tired Americans are of paying hundreds of billions of dollars a year to protect people who essentially hate us and definitely look down upon us. Yes, that's you. We know how you feel about us and we mostly feel the same way about you.

Get a grip.

Most people don't have any strong feelings about Americans as a single group, not more than they might feel about any other nationality as a group. I think, in the nicest possible way, people don't think about Americans as much as you seem to think.

LifeExperience

Fuck me. Y'all on Mumsnet, not Hawksnet. Settle down, home team.

Your alternative is to learn to speak Russian and that's not a joke.

Charming. You might not be joking but it did make me laugh. Come on, you can't really think anyone's going to take statements like that seriously.

This is one of the most terrifying posts I've ever read on here.

I didn't suggest it, I presume it was Trump's idea, I don't agree with it, I was just.
pointing out that they have no actual homes to go back to. From what I have seen it's a wasteland.

Time to defend yourselves or perish.

From what? We don't have chlorinated chicken over here. Yet.

No word from Netanyahu, some from his government are practically elated at the prospect and are openly vocal in ethnically cleansing the Palestinians from Gaza.

Article 5 of the NATO treaty has been invoked just once.

Now THAT is terrifying......shudders

I'm pretty sure we do. 😞

@LifeExperience post is depressing. There is often anti American sentiment and there is talk of 5% and just withdrawing generally

It's not going to help us when that happens

@LifeExperience Your post 😆 I can't pack everything into my response that I would like too. As ex US military no doubt you are very proud of your chaotic disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan leaving shit loads of weapons behind. This embolden Putin to invade Ukraine.

USA back then “The 'arms' that you're talking about, and again, I can't verify these particular reports, belonged to the Afghan national security forces,” Kirby said.
“That’s what was left behind. Not that the United States just walked away and abandoned a bunch of weapons in a pile in Afghanistan. That's simply not historically accurate.”
USA now "Will Trump be able to retrieve billions of dollars worth of abandoned US military equipment from Taliban? | The Independent"

The US has been withdrawing from many treaties "The process of the disintegration of arms control agreements began in 2002, with the George W. Bush administration’s withdrawal from the Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) Treaty. The German government was unhappy with this decision but could do nothing to stop it. "

Now the US agrees for missiles to be fired into Russia (and I am also looking at UK here) which leads to this
Germans uneasy about stationing new US missiles | Responsible Statecraft

"The deployment of U.S. missiles in Germany therefore involves the following propositions: Washington is actively considering helping to fire U.S.-manufactured Ukrainian missiles into Russia; U.S. intermediate missiles in Germany will be able to strike deep into Russia; Russian intermediate missiles can strike Germany but not the U.S.; Germany will have no control over the U.S. missiles on its soil. It is hardly surprising that this combination makes many Germans extremely nervous."

Guess what European people don't want your fucking missiles and wishes the US would wise up. If Russia can't take Ukraine how is it going to take all of Europe? But the USA doesn't want Russia having any power anywhere and is quite happy to muck about with Europe to achieve those aims.
Its not all one way as you are trying to portray it. There are overlapping aims but USA cares way more about Russia than you are giving credence to.

Meanwhile USA supports the obliteration of Gaza and the murder of innocents in both Gaza and Lebanon.

Much as @LifeExperience ’s post is depressing, I’m sure it is the view of the majority of Americans ( if the election of Trump is anything to go by) .
So it is a reality we have to face. The world order is changing scarily quickly.

Yes it's felt by enough to get the vote that has happened

I think people are missing the impact here

The irony to me is in how many of you are incensed at the idea of the Gazans being housed elsewhere other than the artificially created area known as Gaza which they, themselves, made perfectly clear was not 'their home', that said 'home' being all of Israel which they wish to cleanse from Jews.

Which is it?

Instead of looking at the list of historical rights and wrongs perhaps we could look at what is better for actual Palestinians if they stay as they are.

In a few weeks after the next Hamas sneak attack many more will die and that will keep happening.

They might be acceptable to some in the UK who consider themselves pro-Palestinian but not so good if you actually there.

Your 'brutal suppression' is another person's desire to eradicate once and for all the people who did Oct 7, who have promised to do it again, who spend international aid in building tunnels beneath civilian infrastructure so they can cry 'foul!' when those civilians are in the firing line, who haven't stopped shelling Israel throughout this war, and whose very own motto calls for the eradication of Israel.

Given the provocation of Oct 7, any one of us, given the resources, would have acted just the same way as Israel has. This is why much of the world is sitting on its hands, including Gaza's neighbours, who see Gazans as being trouble-on-a-stick proxying for the area's real bully-boy, Iran. Which is why they look the other way as Israel do what they perceive to be area's dirty work for them. And why no one wants Gazans on their soil, having watched Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt.

And as an aside, where was the international outcry and condemnation on Oct 8th?

As for 'selling arms', the very phone you're typing on contains Israeli designed components. Are you throwing that to the ground in disgust? Are all your investments free of the taint of Israel? We sell arms to everyone. It's a major export industry in the UK. We don't have a lot else, other than blue hair dye.

"Is it antisemitic to be against Israel's brutal suppression of the Palestinians?"

Very much so when Hamas is holding the children they kidnapped and Israel is trying to get them back.

Will people who think rescue is wrong sign a waiver in case their kids ever get kidnapped?

What's wrong with blue hair dye?

Regarding what @LifeExperience posted, which is only just upthread, it's long so I won't repost it- I think they are right in a lot of ways.

I can entirely see why the US wants Greenland; we have already seen
many places that were tacitly either pro-ish the west, or neutral now rabidly in the hands of Russia and China, like much of Africa. We can be sure that if Starmer gifts the Chagos Islands to Mauritius, for some odd reason, we will see a Chinese military base on it within a few years; China has got very strong infiltration into the Panama Canal, and Russia and China are very much eyeing up the northern sea route. Control of Greenland would be a major step towards this.

I believe the US look at Europe and see still jingoistic but sclerotic nations hand-wringing their ineffectual, inclusive, red-tape bound way to future poverty, increasingly dependent on young 'aliens', a certain percentage of whom do not share our cultural views, to function; the US do pay to defend Western Europe from Russia, while Russian influence creeps gradually westwards, again. The peoples of some border lands want to join the EU so the EU will defend them from the bear, and they can get a job in Germany. They want the western leg-up which the established Western Europe expect for the US.

Russia will win in Ukraine, but they'd win tomorrow if they wheeled out their Big Guns. We'd say 'but we'd counter them, using our Big Guns'- but what we'd mean is 'America will save us!' British military top brass have already openly said we barely have the wherewithal to defend ourselves right now, let alone defend others.

I think the US has lost its sense of pride, some of it rather overblown, I have to say. The west doesn't aspire to be American anything like it did 30-40 years ago, but that does explain 'Trump', and that if Western Europe has lost its sense of respect, if not awe towards the USA, the USA might feel less inclined to defend us.

Trump is right to demand we pay up for our defence. And in this vein, the US are right to support Israel in the Middle East, a small island of western sentiment awash in a sea of medieval Islam whose peoples either want Death To The West or a Green Card....