Hamas and Gaza celebrates

[LetThereBeLove]

Hillel Nueur, International human rights lawyer, writer, Executive Director of United Nations Watch writes: 'Never before in history has a side claimed that they suffered a genocide and at the same time that they won the war they had started.'

If you read only a handful of messages on social media today and watch the news, people in Gaza are celebrating and Hamas state they will continue (their barbarity) until Israel is eradicated. I won't repost these as anyone can find them easily.

No I didn't. Go show me where in MY POSTS, I said what you are saying I said.

@ExitPersuedByAMemory Crazy isn't it? Israel can build a bunker under a hospital then go Hamas would be crazy not to use it so we will deny care to premature babies and people on lifesupport, terrorise staff and raze the hospital to the ground and people actually go sounds legit, I see no problems there.

@stomachamelon Not all Israelis have been radicalised. There are many who actually want peace and co-exist and yet they know that this isn’t possible because of Bibi’s lust for war to avoid elections. There are Israeli conscientious objectors who are imprisoned because they refuse to participate in mandatory military service and in doing so they are labelled as “self-hating Jews”, some are even imprisoned for their pacifist beliefs. Some have even participated in this military service and were disillusioned after having to man checkpoints etc.

There are also rabbis as well as members of the orthodox community who actually believe the state of Israel should not even exist and do you know what the IDF does? These peaceful civilians are dragged in the streets and are humiliated by their own people. So where’s the mass outcry or is that only reserved for Hamas? Oh and this mandatory military service in Israel? It can’t be avoided. Young Israelis must be drafted into the IDF in Israel. So don’t you think that this also leads radicalisation and a mindless need to fight when these innocent, young people have no choice but to be conscripted?

Not sure what being new or otherwise has got to do with it & I dont recall that I said that. As I understand some tunnels are very old some newer. Some have air conditioning. Here's just one link - tunnel under the hospital & a kindergarden.https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-army-displays-tunnel-beneath-al-shifa-it-says-served-hamas-hideout-2023-11-22/

Do you know whether this has been verified by independent journalists / organisations?
by this I don’t mean the tunnel but that I was used by Hamas

Who else was using tunnels in gaza?

Apparently the fact that Hamas would be crazy not to use them is enough evidence for some.

Is that a yes or a no to my question ? Has it been independently verified this exact tunnel was being used by Hamas ? If so , do you have a link ? As the one you’ve provided is only about what IDF says and IDF shows, so not independently verified

@ExitPersuedByAMemory I know. I have family there.
And at no point did I say all..... in the same way I wouldn't begin to believe all Palestinians have been radicalised. You have misunderstood what I wrote if that is what you took from that.

Also lots of countries have military service. (23 I think)

I believe the IDF had proof in the form of a calendar. This was their justification for a war crime @EasterIssland. And yet, the IDF could conscript anyone eligible for military service and somehow some of the posters on here will say, “But Khamas…” in order to justify war crimes. Apparently, according to @SharonEllis, “it doesnt have to be to be a legit target under international law”. Her actual words which left me gobsmacked. Which means some people are actually ok with bombing hospitals under the basis of speculation and I thought we’d all be in agreement that that is a war crime.

Do you write to every media outlet to ask to see their 'independent verification' for every story they publish or do you trust that they jave professional processrs in place? You're the one who trawls the internet for stories every day. do you post up your 'independent verification' for each one? I haven't noticed. This story was posted by Reuters, not a random tik tokker. If you can find someone, with independent verification to disprove it go right ahead.

FFs. Read what I said. I said military use of a hospital means that under international law it is no longer protected, along with other conditions, as outlined in the link I included. Military use does not have to be a 'command centre'. Different examples of military use are in the link. This is just a question of facts.

@SharonEllis has used a link by an organisation called UK lawyers for Israel as proof that it was legal for the IDF to bomb the Al Shifa hospital.

What she doesn’t point out is that even her own link states it must be shown that the bombing of the hospital should be proportionate.

She hasn’t provided any links to show the IDF’s actions were proportionate and therefore legal. That’s not surprising as it’s not been addressed by the International Criminal Courts - or any court.

So there was a hideout tunnel under this hospital according to her Reuters link. The link also states the hospital officials have denied it was used as a Hamas command centre.

I cannot see how she can say “it’s a question of facts” and with the implication it was therefore legal for the IDF to have caused the total destruction of the hospital complex and killing of many innocent civilian patients there 🙄

I said several times that there were other conditions. One of those is indeed that attacks are proportionate. Of course the hospital will deny it, not least because Hamas would deal with them if they didnt. Neither you nor I have access to the information or expertise to know whether Israel acted within those conditions.

It appears you were misunderstood here for suggesting that it was legal to bomb a hospital if it was used for military purposes. At least this appears to be what other posters and I believe you were inferring. Thank you for confirming that this is only the case if it’s proportionate.

@SharonEllis So if you are admitting that you don’t check if something has not been independently verified, surely you wouldn’t use said source as a bastion of proof? And maybe in the past media outlets would have professional processors in place, but now in the world of clickbait, it’s easy to write salacious headlines and then issue a small retraction later when they’re caught out, but by then the story has spread.

Please talk us all through your independent verification process for every article or social media post you read from all outlets. How many corroborating pieces if evidence are required to fact check each claim in an article and how does one qualify for being a 'bastion of proof'?

Is that a yes or a no to my question? Has it been proven that Hamas was using al shifa as a military place and therefore within law to be bombed as per your previous comments?

ps. There is no need to attack me in order to justify your answers. You’re the one that has provided a link to reurters to justify the attacks in al shifa.

Since you haven't replied I'll assume you realised that pretending someone said something, then making derogatory comments about what you think they said (someone else said it) and expecting a reply is unreasonable. It would be frankly impossible for you to find what you said I said anyway, because I didn't say it.

As is the case with many posts on these threads.

What many of us are saying is that there is still proof to be shown of Hamas being in these hospitals / tunnels. There is no proof. And even if there was … destroying the hospitals and arresting/ torturing the doctors in our opinion is not proportionate and therefore they shouldn’t be attacked as many innocent lives have been taken.

Just like the other threads I have been commenting on, it has become frustratingly impossible to continue.

The lack of knowledge about the History in these parts, the fanatical denying of proven facts, the nitpicking and purposely misinterpretation is appalling.

I'm out and leaving this to become yet another echo chamber of October 7 justification and Hamas propoganda.

I hear you. Totally agree. I came back after the ceasefire agreement and it was lovely to see a range of people. I suspect they will gradually fade away. The purposeful misunderstanding of what's said on a number of threads, completely changing what was actually said and lack of understanding of history is sad to see.

I'm out too since I have better things to do with my time. These threads don't help.

I can see no one providing justification for 7th October. It’s not Hamas propaganda to question if the Palestinians needed to suffer as they have done.

Perhaps it would help Israel if they now let in independent forensic expert and unfettered access to international journalists?

@Pebblesonthebeach40 i love that when you are not in echo chamber you leave since you just want people to repeat your illusions ! Also this "you don't know enough history" line needs to be dropped people are Alot more knowledgable than you think maybe you should study history from more than one source too .