Hamas and Gaza celebrates

[LetThereBeLove]

Hillel Nueur, International human rights lawyer, writer, Executive Director of United Nations Watch writes: 'Never before in history has a side claimed that they suffered a genocide and at the same time that they won the war they had started.'

If you read only a handful of messages on social media today and watch the news, people in Gaza are celebrating and Hamas state they will continue (their barbarity) until Israel is eradicated. I won't repost these as anyone can find them easily.

OMG. Trying to think of a way to explain this in terms you will understand. I imagine you know the concept 'victim blaming'? Israel has not created its own exustential threat by existing. Unless you believe the state of Israel does not have a right to exist?
Suggest reading some reputable history.

Post 7/10 ongoing rocket attacks from Hamas, Houthis, Hezbollah and a missile attack from Iran whose stated aim is to destroy Israel shows the ongoing need for the iron dome. The reason there are relatively small numbers of Israeli deaths is because the iron dome largely protects them from airborne threats. Sadly it cant protect them from terrorists with knives or suicide vests.

Indeed. Its strange to see people still deny tunnels.

https://www.reuters.com/graphics/ISRAEL-PALESTINIANS/GAZA-TUNNELS/gkvldmzorvb/

The tunnel network is vast. Some built originally by the Israelis, others added. Some are simple small tunnels and others very wide with access for vehicles.

Some of the hostages were kept in them, others in civilian homes.

Whether the ones near and under hospitals were used to direct commands was a claim but not sure if confirmed.

However, for avoidance of doubt there is an extensive tunnel network.

Could you explain why Netanyahu is blocking a UN investigation now into the horrific sexual violence of 07/10 and the one against Palestinians in detention?
He also has refused to conduct one on how 07/10 enfolded.
Both Hamas and the Israeli government have a lot to answer to.
Let's not pretend it is one sided.

My notion is based on you repeating uninformed tropes like 'changing the name from Palestine to Israel'.

Start with the basics. Wikipedia on the history of the region from the Ottoman empire onwards: the scope of that empire, it's fall, what happened during the (brief) British mandate, the creation of all the states in that region from the British and French mandates, the violence during that time, the 1947-48 civil war (don't skim over the war of the roads), then onto the declaration of the state of Israel. Don't focus on the UN/West: think about what people were doing right there in the middle east, their actions, their motives, their agency. Once you've read that, look at the causes of the Jordananian civil war (Black September) and the causes of the Lebanese civil war.

Read several sources and understand it for yourself, instead of just letting someone else feed you a narrative and being emotionally led by that.

Where to begin!

No, Jewish refugees were not welcome to Palestine in 1948 until the establishment of the State of Israel. However, after the state was established, Jewish refugees were able to freely land.

"Immigration to Palestine (Aliyah) remained severely limited until the establishment of the State of Israel in May 1948. Thousands of Jewish displaced persons sought to enter Palestine illegally: between 1945 and 1948, the British authorities interned many of these would-be immigrants to Palestine in detention camps on Cyprus."

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/refugees#:~:text=Immigration%20to%20Palestine%20(Aliyah)%20remained,of%20Israel%20in%20May%201948.

No, it wasn't called Palestine. There was no such state. Once you've read the history, you'll see that.

Indeed. Its strange to see people still deny tunnels.

That is not what people did. Everyone knows about the tunnels, obviously many were built and used by Israel at stages. There is disagreement as to whether the tunnels under hospitals were used by Hamas. IDF said they were, justifying a potential war crime of bombing a hospital but as yet no proof has been provided.

You have more patience than me.

@SharonEllis Where is this absolute evidence? I notice that you singled out Al Shifa. Does this justify killing the patients and doctors? But what about other hospitals and makeshift medical facilities? What about the charitable organisations who are targeted? Or did they too lose protection? Why can’t an independent 3rd party and the free press go and see what’s happening? Why are journalists also being targeted? Why is Israel funding Hamas and then blames Hamas, Iran et. al?

"So it seems that there are tunnels, but clearly not under hospitals" as per muddled posters claim. You have that very quote within your quoted information

Direct quote within those linked posts. The article I posted upthread clearly shows tunnels under hospitals yet people as in that direct quote deny them being under hospitals. Whether used for hamas command is much in dispute but they are there.

I've quoted the exact phrase denying tunnels under hospitals.

I've also.linked separately an article showing the extension tunnel network including under hospitals.

@statsfun Why are you directing me to history? And what history do you speak of? I could say the same thing about United States of America. It wasn’t always called that. A lot of countries and places have had different names centuries ago.

There isn't any absolute evidence; that's the problem. Every time hospitals/ schools/ refugees camps/cultural centres are targeted the reason is always "it's Hamas' command centre". Every. Single. Time.

Because if you ignore what actually happened, you're vulnerable to people making up nonsense, which they have made emotionally attractive to you.

Look, I'm not your teacher. I've given you some pointers to where you can get started if you want to actually understand the situation.

I can’t seem to open the link @Pebblesonthebeach40. I also I can’t find the link to a separate article where it supports the claim that there are tunnels under hospitals. Both links would be appreciated. I was confused by the mention of tunnels because one second it’s Hamas who built it, then I’m reading it was built by Israelis and then I’m reading that there tunnels under hospitals so just saying “tunnels” is very broad to me.

@statsfun It’s all very well to say to look at history and then say a name of a country has not changed and then cite said history. Knowing full well, it was called Palestine and it’s perfectly ok to acknowledge that the name of a country has changed to a name that you’re saying was there historically. I didn’t get a chance to read your post about the Ottoman Empire. That does not mean it was never called Palestine was it? And it does not mean that what was once called Palestine is now called Israel and cite history to claim why it never changed. In doing so, you’re denying the existence of Palestine that was once there before 1948 and by doing that, you’re removing the right of Palestinians who have wanted to return to their homeland or have had their homes destroyed by settler communities etc.

No one has denied there are tunnels under hospitals, evidence of the huge tunnel network is not that hard to demonstrate. No evidence has been provided on whether they were used by Hamas for military purposes.

Thank you for this @Pebblesonthebeach40. But this doesn’t acknowledge that the refugees were welcomed in Palestine though? It just looks like unfortunately there were detention camps in Cyprus which is saddening, but again nothing to do with Palestine? It doesn’t explain how overnight many Palestinians lost the rights to their homes because centuries ago, it was called Israel?

So you're not going to bother to read enough background to understand what you see around you. OK.

It's not one tunnel. It's a huge network of them.

The Reuters News Agency report is long and it opens for me.

To keep simple some details of the extensive network. Some were built by Israelies many, many years ago and others by hamas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_tunnel_warfare_in_the_Gaza_Strip#:~:text=Today%20there%20are%20360%20kilometers,360%20kilometers%20of%20tunnels%20underground

Even Iran comment on the extensive network. "According to Iranian military officer Hassan Hassanzadeh, who commands the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps from Tehran, the Gaza Strip's tunnels run for more than 500 kilometres (310 mi) throughout the territory."

Imagine 310 miles of tunnels under a small land area. Hamas can get around, evade capture, avoid direct fighting, hide away, hide hostages. Hamas can move underground without detection. It makes it incredibly difficult to defeat them when they operate underground like rats. No out and fight like traditional warfare. It's referred to as guerilla warfare.

The poor people are left on the surface whilst they are underground.

They weren't welcome in the area. Palestine wasn't a country

So first there were no tunnels. Now we all accept that yes, of course everyone knows there are tunnels. Putting aside the evidence that they are used, you have to be very special indeed to think that Hamas wouldn't use those tunnels if they were there. Air conditioned , with electrical power, big enough to stand up in. Seriously, you cant think we are that dense. Whether every single one is a 'command centre' how on earth would I know. I doubt it. But then again it doesnt have to be to be a legit target under international law. All this frantic moving of goal posts is dizzying.

But then again it doesnt have to be to be a legit target under international law.

Yes it does Sharon. You don't get to bomb hospitals based on speculation.

So first there were no tunnels.
Where have people said that?

All this frantic moving of goal posts is dizzying.
There isn't any frantic movement of goal posts. Everyone has been very consistent with what they have said about the tunnels over the past number of months. There has been no evidence as yet to demonstrate they were used as a command centre under hospitals to justify the bombing of hospitals.

Whether every single one is a 'command centre' how on earth would I know.
Exactly how would you know but you seem to think that it justifies bombing hospitals and bringing the health system in Gaza to a complete collapse