Hamas and Gaza celebrates

[LetThereBeLove]

Hillel Nueur, International human rights lawyer, writer, Executive Director of United Nations Watch writes: 'Never before in history has a side claimed that they suffered a genocide and at the same time that they won the war they had started.'

If you read only a handful of messages on social media today and watch the news, people in Gaza are celebrating and Hamas state they will continue (their barbarity) until Israel is eradicated. I won't repost these as anyone can find them easily.

You've summed up exactly what's happened. The lack of knowledge and deep felt historical prejudice regarding the creation of Israel has found a forum on MN. I believe many want the state of Israel dissolved and Israeli Jews asimmilaated into a new state of Palestine as per their chant 'from the river to the sea'. That's their preferred path to peace. Giving sovereignty to a terrorist organisation doesn't even enter their conscience.

@ChangeyerNameyer

I am not an expert, but my guess is that the best chance of peace would be through systematic deradicalisation of the Palestinian population led by a coalition of other Muslim nations

No you're not an expert. It's baffling that you think that the path towards peace will involve the Palestinian people accepting bring a non people in a non existent country with it's borders militarily controlled by Israel. somehow being deradicalied by a mythical coalition of countries who persuade them to be happy with their lot so that Israelis can live happily ever after.

Palestinians need to be offered a viable political pathway to their own state. It's not me saying that it's the conclusion of most of the international community.

This 100%

So where does thst viable pathway come from? It cant be Hamas. Its unlikely to work with the PA. People dont suddenly learn how to magically become a functioning democracy. This is well known. Everyone who genuinely cares about the Palestinians has been discussing the involvement of states and individuals from outside in that process @ChangeyerNameyer was making perfectly sensible suggestions.

It's a fair question from @ChangeyerNameyer.

I'm disappointed with your reply as understanding all perspectives is important.

The lack of knowledge and deep felt historical prejudice regarding the creation of Israel has found a forum on MN.

So you're accusing posters on mumsnet of a deep felt historical prejudice regarding the creation of Israel? And @LetThereBeLove you're in agreement?

Everyone who genuinely cares about the Palestinians

And whose that in your opinion?

“They say that they will do whatever is necessary to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. Their actions so far have consistently confirmed that they will live up to their words whenever they have the opportunity to.”

@ChangeyerNameyer

I agree actions speak louder than words, however when examining who has been killing whom, the body count both absolutely and proportionally show that Israel’s military is leagues ahead of any Palestinian terror group in mass murder of children, women, and civilian men. Let’s just look at children, who I think we can all agree are 100% innocent in all this no matter what religion they are.

The current estimate is that during this conflict, around 18,000 Palestinian children have been killed by the IDF compared to 14 Israeli children by Hamas over the past 15 months of war.

This is a 1:1,285 ratio. For every Israeli child killed, 1,285 Palestinian children have been killed In absolute numbers.

Now let’s consider proportionally compared to the total number of children using the same method by which Oct 7th was estimated to have as much of an impact on Israel as 9/11 had on the US - by comparing population sizes.

There were 1.1 million Palestinian children compared to 3.4 million Israeli children at the start of the conflict. For Hamas to have had the same impact on Israel that IDF had on Palestine, Hamas would have had to kill 55,620 children over the past 15 months.

You write a lot about the threats from Hamas, and express worry as to what actions they might do, and it is entirely reasonable for Israel to defend itself and hate Hamas. I suppose it’s also fair to say that if Hamas could, they would kill thousands of Israeli children.

But given who has killed whom, looking at the actions that have happened, can you agree that the Palestinians who are caught in the middle of this and the ones whose children are being slaughtered in exponentially greater numbers also have cause to fear Israel and hate the IDF?

If Hamas words and actions are enough to justify the fear of a Palestinian state, then how are the actions of IDF not enough to also justify fear of the Israeli state as it is currently run/governed and acting?

I don't know what to say. I don't feel comfortable encouraging hate speech. If that poster could engage respectfully without using hateful rhetoric you may have a point but it isn't a singular post that they have had deleted tonight, it's multiple. I have no reason to believe that if I engage with them in good faith it will any different.

Why aren't you? It's no secret. In a way it's refreshingly honest.

I have no idea where the viable path comes from. I’m also not an expert. And whatever happens it will be a long, long way to Peace. The US are suggesting the PA with the involvement of outside states.

This is not the same as what the poster suggested. Because they aren’t suggesting a Palestinian state at all. They seem to think that the only way to a Palestinian state involves the end of israel. They are thinking solely about what will give Israelis safety and security. Peace will never be the result of that type of thinking. It just doesn’t work like that.

I’m celebrating the ceasefire, we are all winners for choosing to stop killing each other. I don’t care how war mongers choose to justify putting down their weapons or stopping their killing machines in their twisted ways- so long as they stick to peace.

I am hoping it holds. No more death. Too many have died and for nothing.
I am looking forward to some happiness being snatched for the families of the hostages and detainees.
I am looking forward to rebuilding and no more babies or children dying of starvation or cold.
I am looking forward to wounded civilians getting the medical care they need/urgent evacuations.

Couldn't have said it better myself 👏

There's nothing I read in those posts that precludes the existence of a Palestinian state. I don't understand your post at all. Of course its hard to go back snd see because the posts have been deleted.

They absolutely did.
@mollyfolk thank you and spot on. Some of the things said were shocking to say the least.

I'm not sure how anyone who was posting in between the posts could have missed it. It was said over and over again that a Palestinian state would be an existential threat to Israel.

Only if the Hamas threat wasn't dealt with. Thats obviously true - Hamas's stated intention is to destroy Israel.

No, that wasn't the only reason given. The posts were deleted for a reason so I'm not going to hash it out again.

I saw a video of rows of ambulances and aid trucks lined up in Egypt waiting to enter Gaza and it made me cry. The relief Palestinians will feel to finally have some help coming for them and their families. I can't imagine.

Yes they've been parked up there since last week. Non sensical that they've had to sit there waiting (packed with crucial medical and humanitarian supplies) until a ceasefire agreement before they could have safe access.

I was just saying the same thing to dh. It's so sad that all along there has been so many people waiting and willing to help but they haven't been safe to do so. There has been so much pointless loss of life, trauma and pain over the past 15months. I really hope that everyone entering Gaza to help is kept safe, it must be very scary for them for so many reasons but they are all lined up waiting anyway.

UNWRA alone has 4,000 trucks of aid waiting to enter. I really do hope this ceasefire lasts for everyone's sake. The bloodshed has gone on for far too long

It's a great shame that unlimited aid is not being allowed in during the ceasefire. 600 trucks a day is obviously better than it was but with 9 out of 10 homes destroyed it won't even touch the sides realistically. I saw this photo today and the devastation is just unbelievable. Navigating through the endless destruction to try and help everyone with resources still being limited will be an impossible challenge I would imagine.

Unlimited aid would be chaos - aid agencies will know what level of aid can be managed. Unlimited aid could not be supervised. Hamas would steal the aid (as they have a strong track recird of doing), it would be looted, which has been a problem throughout, and it would not be distributed in an orderly manner. Have we firgotten what sort of organisation Hamas is, how many armed gangs there are in gaza? Im sure the idea come from a place meaning well but ask anyone with experience of humanitarian aid and it has to be managed.