Christmas in Bethlehem

[Auvergne63]

Another muted celebration in Bethlehem, Christ's birthplace for over 2 billions Christians.
https://international.la-croix.com/religion/in-bethlehem-a-christmas-marked-by-exhaustion-and-anxiety
The economic consequences of the "war" on this holy place are also staggering.
https://apnews.com/article/christmas-israel-palestinians-bethlehem-jesus-gaza-war-b508f651811c710e6d2f1994a3dcf131

I've spent most of the last 12 hours asleep, eating and playing games with my family. This really isn't about me. Its about a pretty central question to this whole conflict which is why, from the beginning, there has been such an empathy gap for the hostages. It was that simple thing that made a lot of people see what was going on.

whats happening in Gaza is a Genocide and ethnic cleansing. Lots of the major international organisations have named it as such. I guess those who agree with what Israel is doing will deny it until they are blue in the face though.

To keep saying it isn't a genocide doesn't make it true either. The courts will decide if it is or not,
Meanwhile, Gazans keep dying and, now, in Northern Gaza, there is no functioning hospital, Medical staff were arrested and patients " evacuated,"
Any person with an ounce of empathy would feel nothing but utter horror at this,

When this is all over, and if independent observers are allowed in Gaza, the world will see the extent of the deliberate mass murder of the Gazans.
The world will weep.

We can't discuss this. Do keep up! ( heavy sarcasm)

A religious homily during the celebration of Mass is not the same as other types of speech so the priest is not free ( or shouldn’t consider himself free) to simply say whatever he likes. Prayers for all innocent victims in a conflict should always be part of a religious service.

https://www.ncronline.org/opinion/guest-voices/face-israel-hamas-war-maybe-christians-should-be-every-side

I’m sure that’s true. It is heartbreaking.

Just to add “ Christians being on every side” should mean Christians being on the side of the innocent victims. ( Not on the side of Hamas or Netanyahu’s government)

He was empathising with the victims of the siege of the hospital.

Well we see things differently then.

@MissyB1 .Morning.
Again with the Genocide, stating it as fact.
Some organisations say it is, and some say it's not.
And I haven't said I agree with everything Israel are doing, you have just made that bit up. But I'll let it go.

I don't however believe it is Genocide, but I guess those who do will keep saying it until they are blue in the face.

@Auvergne63
How about you keep saying it is Genocide, and I'll keep saying it isn't Genocide and that way it doesnt make either of our assertions true. Fair? And yes, the courts will decide, we can agree on that.

I have empathy thanks, and I do feel utter horror for everyone in this whole war and what is happening to all sides.

Maybe Hamas should stop using hospitals etc, as military bases and employing identified Hamas terrorists. Then maybe Israel would be able to stop attacking them, and wont have to open any more of the 8-12 field hospitals they already have.

I still don't understand why Hamas don't surrender and return the hostages (including 9 month old baby FFS)? The utter horror!

I would have thought that would be the quickest way to end this? And why isn't everyone vocalising at their anger at Hamas and pushing them to end this? I never seem to get an answer to that?

So that saying has been hijacked as well now! Brill.
Can't you lot make up your own sayings pls.

Scirroco was was eloquently talking about the message of “Never again”, suggesting that some sayings have universal meanings and this is one of them.

I am sure you did not mean that this saying’s message should only ever apply to Jewish people.

Christians are being killed and driven out of Maaloula in Syria by the Islamist terrorists who took over Syria as we speak. It's an ancient historic town where Aramaic (the language spoken by Jesus) is still spoken. Horrifying to see ancient cultures and people erased in this way.

Maybe Hamas should stop using hospitals etc, as military bases and employing identified Hamas terrorists. Then maybe Israel would be able to stop attacking them, and wont have to open any more of the 8-12 field hospitals they already have.
Are you actually serious? Could you provide unbiased and verified links to your assertions that:
a) the medical staff are Hamas terrorists.
b) there are 8-12 fields hospitals.
I still don't understand why Hamas don't surrender and return the hostages (including 9 month old baby FFS)? The utter horror!
Hamas has repeatedly stated they will release all hostages if a permanently ceasefire is agreed. Netanyahu has repeatedly stated the "war" will not end even if the hostages are released. Do you understand why now?
I would have thought that would be the quickest way to end this? And why isn't everyone vocalising at their anger at Hamas and pushing them to end this? I never seem to get an answer to that?
Hamas are not the ones bombing indiscriminately, using starvation as a weapon of war, denying the basics for life ( medical/water/electricity). I could go on.
Hamas are responsible for 07/10 and the Israeli government for what they have unleashed in Gaza since then.

Please, provide links to support your assertion that that is what is happening in Syria.
The same applies to Gaza. One of the oldest church in Gaza has been destroyed by the IDF, along mosques and other cultural buildings.

@Scirocco and @ScrollingLeaves
The dream team..

"Better tell the US Holocaust Memorial Museum (used the universalist message in previous work), the Bush administration and their allies, people who organised the commemorations of the Rwanda genocide, Zelenskyy, Elie Wiesel, and quite a few others that they've been using it wrong then."

Bla bla

I think everybody knows that when a Jewish person, who first coined the phrase, says 'never again' they mean it specifically in reference to the holocaust. Which is why I said it. If that phrase has evolved and extended beyond that fine, but using it at almost a 'back at you' to ME, subverts its meaning in the context of this specific conversation.

I hope I put that eloquently enough for you

Thanks for the compliment. We are a pretty good team and I think @ScrollingLeaves is a great discussion partner on here. I hope they agree.

@Auvergne63 Not in Bethlehem but while I was reading earlier I found this picture: A Syrian Muslim woman having her photograph taken with a Christmas tree, next to Christian figures. I thought you might like to see it.

Thank you. Beautiful picture.
I hope you had a lovely Christmas, however you chose to spent it.
The last 14 months has been particularly difficult for you, I know. Yet you have remained measured in your responses to blatant provocation.
I do not possess this ability. I blame my Italian/French background for this lol.

Information here
www.wca-ngo.org/wca-news/press-releases/715-save-maaloula-urgent-action-needed-to-protect-the-survival-of-aramean-christians-in-syria

Your posts are always well measured and welcome 😊

@Auvergne63 - let's try

Are you actually serious? Could you provide unbiased and verified links to your assertions that:
a) the medical staff are Hamas terrorists.
b) there are 8-12 fields hospitals.

Yes I'm serious, and most of my sources are from CGPT. Go check it out. And it seems there is no such thing as unbiased or 'verified' sources anymore. Back at you with that request

• Yes, Israel has established field hospitals in the Gaza Strip to provide medical care amid ongoing conflicts. In May 2024, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) announced the opening of an eighth field hospital in central Gaza, aiming to treat Palestinian civilians affected by the hostilities.

• "hospital director, Hussam Abu Safiya, is a Colonel in Hamas"* is one example.*

Hamas has repeatedly stated they will release all hostages if a permanently ceasefire is agreed. Netanyahu has repeatedly stated the "war" will not end even if the hostages are released. Do you understand why now?

Well if Hamas have repeatedly said, in public, it must be true, did this last say this before or after they murdered 6 hostages?

Iin a press conference a few months ago, which I watched, "Netanyahu has also reiterated that the war could end if Hamas surrenders, disarms, and releases all hostages. In a statement, he said, “The war in Gaza could end tomorrow if Hamas surrenders, disarms, and returns all the hostages.”
So no, I don't understand now. Do You?!

Hamas are not the ones bombing indiscriminately, using starvation as a weapon of war, denying the basics for life ( medical/water/electricity). I could go on.
Hamas are responsible for 07/10 and the Israeli government for what they have unleashed in Gaza since then.

But Hamas are the ones perpetuating this war by not surrendering and releasing the hostages. They have no care for their people, and get stronger with every innocent Pali that dies, Weaponising their own people, you might call it.
The issues of food, water etc are disputed as you know, but again it is the elected leaders of Gaza, HAMAS'S responsibility to take care of their people, who clearly they don't give a shit about.

BYW, Can we at least have our 6 month old baby back (prob around 2 now).

Also I hear plenty of Jews / Israelis criticising Israel, BN, Jews, which is their right. I can honestly say I haven't heard more than a handful of Palestinians criticise Hamas, and calling on them to end this. You can add most of the Muslim world to that if you like. A mere 1.8 billion people.
Now do you get it?

I would have thought that would be the quickest way to end this? And why isn't everyone vocalising at their anger at Hamas and pushing them to end this? I never seem to get an answer to that?
Hamas are not the ones bombing indiscriminately, using starvation as a weapon of war, denying the basics for life ( medical/water/electricity). I could go on.
Hamas are responsible for 07/10 and the Israeli government for what they have unleashed in Gaza since then.

Unfortunately this crops up on here pretty regularly. Its very callous, and very revealing. You'd think people who really care would step back and question WHY its so important to them to appropriate a phrase coined for the Holocaust even if it causes distress to Jewish people. What would make a person so strident about their right to do it over a Jewish person's request that they don't? Do people not ever pause and think 'maybe I could make my point some other way'? Of course there are times when world leaders & Jewish leaders might invoke the horror in order to warn about such horror in the future. That can be done sensitively and respectfully in a context where people are trying to build bridges. This MN thread, with its notable lack of sentivity and respect is not that context.

The OP said it was being done by
the Islamist terrorists who took over Syria, your article suggests it is from largely foreign Jihadists,

I don't think it is accurate to suggest this is being done by the HTS they are currently promising to protect the rights and freedoms of religious and ethnic minorities in Syria so we need to watch and see if they're true to their word so not helpful for posters to inaccurately claim they are persecuting Christians.