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Conflict in the Middle East

Christmas in Bethlehem

250 replies

Auvergne63 · 23/12/2024 09:09

Another muted celebration in Bethlehem, Christ's birthplace for over 2 billions Christians.
https://international.la-croix.com/religion/in-bethlehem-a-christmas-marked-by-exhaustion-and-anxiety
The economic consequences of the "war" on this holy place are also staggering.
https://apnews.com/article/christmas-israel-palestinians-bethlehem-jesus-gaza-war-b508f651811c710e6d2f1994a3dcf131

In Bethlehem, a Christmas marked by exhaustion and anxiety

As Christmas approaches, the churches of Jerusalem have called on their faithful to show signs of Christian hope. But in Bethlehem, economically suffocating and clouded by uncertainty, anxiety about the future weighs heavily on people's hearts.

https://international.la-croix.com/religion/in-bethlehem-a-christmas-marked-by-exhaustion-and-anxiety

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Thread gallery
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queenofarles · 24/12/2024 10:51

I wish more people would look at this very complex part of the world with less prejudice ?
you can’t just pick the data apart and focus on Christians and Jews and leave the others out.

Oppression comes in many forms ,

in Bethlehem Palestinians are constantly threatened by illegal colonizers.
Muslims and Christians.

Iraq ,
I've met Iraqi Muslims who did everything they can to move their families out of Iraq in the early 90s , they were all from middle class backgrounds but the sanctions meant their circumstances were considerably reduced. and this is the single biggest factor that drove people to leave, Muslims , Christians, Jews.

Destitute Lebanese Christians and Muslims are also desperate to leave due to hardship , but the wealthy don’t share the same desire to leave their country.

and it’s exactly the same in Egypt.

OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 10:54

queenofarles · 24/12/2024 10:51

I wish more people would look at this very complex part of the world with less prejudice ?
you can’t just pick the data apart and focus on Christians and Jews and leave the others out.

Oppression comes in many forms ,

in Bethlehem Palestinians are constantly threatened by illegal colonizers.
Muslims and Christians.

Iraq ,
I've met Iraqi Muslims who did everything they can to move their families out of Iraq in the early 90s , they were all from middle class backgrounds but the sanctions meant their circumstances were considerably reduced. and this is the single biggest factor that drove people to leave, Muslims , Christians, Jews.

Destitute Lebanese Christians and Muslims are also desperate to leave due to hardship , but the wealthy don’t share the same desire to leave their country.

and it’s exactly the same in Egypt.

Yes - it is complicated. The data shows however that Christianity world wide is the most endangered and persecuted religion.

OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 11:05

This report reflects some of the challenges the Christians in the region face
acnuk.org/news/holy-land-when-the-wounds-are-still-bleeding-it-is-not-the-time-to-speak-of-politics-cardinal/

Auvergne63 · 24/12/2024 11:12

OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 10:26

The problem with some of these threads is that the persecution of Christians is used to vilify one side of this conflict. It’s not right to use the persecution of Christians to pursue an agenda of vilifying only one group.
The truth is that Christian Palestinians in the region have been oppressed by both sides of the conflict- by Hamas and by Jewish extremists.
If posters are genuine in their concern they need to acknowledge that the oppression of Christians in the region is not limited to the group they consider “the enemy/ wrong doer” .

I am not vilifying "one side", as you put it.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/1/under-israeli-attack-who-are-the-christians-of-gaza
https://www.persecution.org/2023/11/15/beaten-down-but-not-forsaken/
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/10/03/vanishing-arab-christians-gaza-hamas-di-giovanni-book/
I think it is important to read on the subject on the persecution of Christians in Gaza from different sources and then and only then, form an opinion.

Under Israeli attack: Who are the Christians of Gaza?

They’re small in number, but with deep roots that they are unwilling to leave behind.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/1/under-israeli-attack-who-are-the-christians-of-gaza

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LetThereBeLove · 24/12/2024 11:14

OchaLove · 24/12/2024 08:55

@SharonEllis Let me ask you this: How does Judaism observes Jesus Christ? Does Judaism accept him as a prophet/messiah?

Some Jews do and others don't. What is generally accepted is that Jesus was himself Jewish.

Auvergne63 · 24/12/2024 11:20

OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 10:51

“Unfortunately, I have never worked with a Jewish colleague or taught a Jewish pupil.”
The Jewish community is much much smaller and often less visibly identifiable and therefore lots of people haven’t had much direct contact .
That’s a shame because we all know that living in a multicultural community helps to break down barriers and dispel negative prejudice. ( I’m not in any way suggesting you are prejudiced- I’m just saying that this is the case in general)

Yes it is a much smaller community.
Of course, as an ex teacher, I believe that education is the key to eradicate prejudice and racism.

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OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 11:31

Auvergne63 · 24/12/2024 11:12

I am not vilifying "one side", as you put it.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/1/under-israeli-attack-who-are-the-christians-of-gaza
https://www.persecution.org/2023/11/15/beaten-down-but-not-forsaken/
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/10/03/vanishing-arab-christians-gaza-hamas-di-giovanni-book/
I think it is important to read on the subject on the persecution of Christians in Gaza from different sources and then and only then, form an opinion.

I 💯 agree that’s it important to try to look at different sources and viewpoints.
I wasn’t accusing you in particular of vilifying one side. It’s just been a general pattern of these threads.
Thank you for the links

OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 11:35

LetThereBeLove · 24/12/2024 11:14

Some Jews do and others don't. What is generally accepted is that Jesus was himself Jewish.

Yes.
The relationship between Judaism and Christianity has not been good in the past ( an understatement) Christians in the past ( not Christianity itself but the proponents) have promoted vile anti semitic rhetoric . Nearly all Christians now acknowledge how terrible that was .
The tables have turned as it is now often Christians across the world who are being persecuted.

SharonEllis · 24/12/2024 11:59

OchaLove · 24/12/2024 08:55

@SharonEllis Let me ask you this: How does Judaism observes Jesus Christ? Does Judaism accept him as a prophet/messiah?

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of the question. I thought this was a thread about actual persecution and harassment of real people not abstract theology.

OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 12:07

SharonEllis · 24/12/2024 11:59

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of the question. I thought this was a thread about actual persecution and harassment of real people not abstract theology.

Yes. Jews and Christians can respect each other and treat each other with decency without agreeing on the nature of Jesus.

SharonEllis · 24/12/2024 12:07

OchaLove · 24/12/2024 08:46

No, I'm not generalizing. I am from a Muslim background and never heard of anyone who is a Muslim speak of Jesus Christ in a degrading manner, or have hate against him.

Not sure of the relevance of personal anecdote. I have known many muslims and without exception (amongst those I have been close to) they have always been generous in religious terms to Christians and acknowledged the shared religious history. But extreme Muslims across the Arab world, Nigeria & other parts of Africa have been involved in the mass murder & persecution of Christians in recent years that has been likened to being close to genocide levels.

SharonEllis · 24/12/2024 12:08

OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 12:07

Yes. Jews and Christians can respect each other and treat each other with decency without agreeing on the nature of Jesus.

Exactly. Its the bedrock of interfaith work. I'm finding this thread a bit surreal tbh.

OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 12:11

SharonEllis · 24/12/2024 12:07

Not sure of the relevance of personal anecdote. I have known many muslims and without exception (amongst those I have been close to) they have always been generous in religious terms to Christians and acknowledged the shared religious history. But extreme Muslims across the Arab world, Nigeria & other parts of Africa have been involved in the mass murder & persecution of Christians in recent years that has been likened to being close to genocide levels.

Yes -@SharonEllis I completely agree with this.
My personal experience of Muslims in this country has been very positive . But Islamist extremism in other countries has led to terrible religious oppression.

Auvergne63 · 24/12/2024 12:18

SharonEllis · 24/12/2024 12:08

Exactly. Its the bedrock of interfaith work. I'm finding this thread a bit surreal tbh.

Please elaborate on why you find this thread "a bit surreal."

OP posts:
SharonEllis · 24/12/2024 14:10

Auvergne63 · 24/12/2024 12:18

Please elaborate on why you find this thread "a bit surreal."

Because people seem to be in a parallel universe.

SummerFeverVenice · 24/12/2024 14:24

Alwayslookonthe · 23/12/2024 19:44

"Violence and coercion has resulted in up to a 90% decline in the Christian population in areas under Hamas or Palestinian Authority control, according to a new study by the Jerusalem Center for Security and Foreign Affairs (JCFA).
In 1922, Christians constituted 11% of the population. Today, in 2024, they are just 1%.

The JCFA research, led by Lt. Col. (res.) Maurice Hirsch and Attorney Tirza Shorr, discovered mass emigration of Christians, particularly from historically significant cities like Bethlehem. "Demographics don’t lie. We are witnessing a significant 80-90% decline in the Christian population in major cities," the researchers emphasised.

The Christian population in Gaza shrank from 5,000 before Hamas took over the area to only 1,000 in October 2023, the report found. JCFA explained that religious and legal discrimination, desecration of holy sites, and social exclusion were behind the decline in the Christian population.

The city of Bethlehem is used as an illustration of what JCFA calls "Christian demographic erasure." In 1950, Bethlehem and the surrounding villages were 86% Christian.

However, this has dwindled since 1994, when the PA took control of the city. The last census in 2017 showed Bethlehem was 10% Christian families, but many have left, or are leaving, due to systemic socio-economic hardships and instability, discrimination, and harassment, including of Christian clergy, by Muslim Palestinians and the Islam-dominated Palestinian Authority.

Bethlehem also serves as an example of Christians undergoing forced conversion to Islam, a phenomenon that Gaza’s Bishop Alexios, warned of in 2016. "Christians who converted to Islam did so under threats and violence," Alexios said at the time. "The mass exodus of the Christians risks undermining the survival of Christianity in its birthplace," the report added.

The report also collected testimonies regarding violence and harassment against Christians, especially of girls, since the PA took over.
Muslim clans reportedly also use force to resolve disputes.
Most cases, however, go unreported due to fear of retribution and a lack of legal enforcement.
"The survival of Christianity in its birthplace depends on awareness and action. Silence strengthens the perpetrators and leaves the victims without international support," Hirsch said.
"It’s unacceptable that in 2025, Christians in the Palestinian Authority fear reporting hate incidents against them for fear of arrest or worse," the report concludes."
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/article-834585

The last census in 2017 showed Bethlehem was 10% Christian families, but many have left, or are leaving, due to systemic socio-economic hardships and instability, discrimination, and harassment, including of Christian clergy, by Israeli apartheid, racism and oppression by Muslim Palestinians and the Islam-dominated Palestinian Authority.

They’re not being oppressed by their fellow Palestinian neighbours. Most conversions are actually due to intermarriage between Christian and Muslim Palestinians.

Muslim, Christian and Druze Palestinians are all fleeing Israeli occupation and oppression as well as being repeatedly displaced by having their homes and towns bulldozed. The Christian Palestinians are more likely to be given refugee status or qualify for visas in Western European countries than are Muslim or Druze Palestinians due to Islamaphobia/Xenophobia, which is why a higher % of them have had the opportunity to emigrate and take it.

The lawlessness in the occupied territories is largely the responsibility of the occupying power- Israel. Israel keeps Palestinian towns off grid, and unfunded. They also do military raids that repeatedly destroy infrastructure and arrest/detain thousands of civilians who are never charged with any crime.

In Gaza, by the end of 2023, over 10% of Palestinian Christians had died in the bombings. They have been disproportionately killed by the IDF.

SummerFeverVenice · 24/12/2024 14:29

OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 10:54

Yes - it is complicated. The data shows however that Christianity world wide is the most endangered and persecuted religion.

How can the world’s #1 religion be the most endangered and persecuted world-wide?

SharonEllis · 24/12/2024 14:30

SummerFeverVenice · 24/12/2024 14:24

The last census in 2017 showed Bethlehem was 10% Christian families, but many have left, or are leaving, due to systemic socio-economic hardships and instability, discrimination, and harassment, including of Christian clergy, by Israeli apartheid, racism and oppression by Muslim Palestinians and the Islam-dominated Palestinian Authority.

They’re not being oppressed by their fellow Palestinian neighbours. Most conversions are actually due to intermarriage between Christian and Muslim Palestinians.

Muslim, Christian and Druze Palestinians are all fleeing Israeli occupation and oppression as well as being repeatedly displaced by having their homes and towns bulldozed. The Christian Palestinians are more likely to be given refugee status or qualify for visas in Western European countries than are Muslim or Druze Palestinians due to Islamaphobia/Xenophobia, which is why a higher % of them have had the opportunity to emigrate and take it.

The lawlessness in the occupied territories is largely the responsibility of the occupying power- Israel. Israel keeps Palestinian towns off grid, and unfunded. They also do military raids that repeatedly destroy infrastructure and arrest/detain thousands of civilians who are never charged with any crime.

In Gaza, by the end of 2023, over 10% of Palestinian Christians had died in the bombings. They have been disproportionately killed by the IDF.

Edited

You haven't presented any evidence for any of this. Why are christians 'disproportionately' killed by the IDF? Are you denying ANY prejudice against Christians from muslims?.

SummerFeverVenice · 24/12/2024 14:40

SharonEllis · 24/12/2024 14:30

You haven't presented any evidence for any of this. Why are christians 'disproportionately' killed by the IDF? Are you denying ANY prejudice against Christians from muslims?.

I don’t need to. Read any HRW, UN, Amnesty Intl report or the ICJ ruling on apartheid and illegal settlement and you can see plain as day that the source of Palestinians of ALL religions discrimination, socio-economic disadvantage, ethnic cleansing and diaspora is due to Israel’s government laws, policies and actions since 1948.

Your unevidenced opinion article from jpost reports demographic facts but then deflects away from the real cause to blame Muslims.

Prejudice exists alright, but Muslim Palestinians don’t have the systemic or institutional power to do that which the jpost opinion accused them of doing.

Go to forensic architecture to see the deaths by religious group and the % destruction of mosques and churches.

OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 14:40

SummerFeverVenice · 24/12/2024 14:29

How can the world’s #1 religion be the most endangered and persecuted world-wide?

Edited

Look it up

SummerFeverVenice · 24/12/2024 14:46

OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 14:40

Look it up

It’s just impossible what you say is true.

The #1 religion in the world of 2.4 billion people is the “most endangered and persecuted” world wide?

So how long do we have before all Christianity is extinct? With only 2.4 billion believers, sheeesh…must be nail bitingly anxiety inducing…

There are only 0.015 billion of we Jewish people in the world…so what does that make us if Christians are the most endangered and persecuted worldwide??

Got an answer Ophelia?

🤪

OpheliaWasntMad · 24/12/2024 15:00

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48146305.amp

SharonEllis · 24/12/2024 15:30

SummerFeverVenice · 24/12/2024 14:46

It’s just impossible what you say is true.

The #1 religion in the world of 2.4 billion people is the “most endangered and persecuted” world wide?

So how long do we have before all Christianity is extinct? With only 2.4 billion believers, sheeesh…must be nail bitingly anxiety inducing…

There are only 0.015 billion of we Jewish people in the world…so what does that make us if Christians are the most endangered and persecuted worldwide??

Got an answer Ophelia?

🤪

The overal number isnt particularly relevant. Nobody said all Christians were the most persecuted. But there is increasing evidence - some of it posted here and on similar threads before that Christians in some parts of the world are facing near genocidal levels of persecution. And because of the formulation that you yoursrlf have tapped into, around hierarchies of oppression they tend to be ignored.