Christmas in Bethlehem

[Auvergne63]

Another muted celebration in Bethlehem, Christ's birthplace for over 2 billions Christians.
https://international.la-croix.com/religion/in-bethlehem-a-christmas-marked-by-exhaustion-and-anxiety
The economic consequences of the "war" on this holy place are also staggering.
https://apnews.com/article/christmas-israel-palestinians-bethlehem-jesus-gaza-war-b508f651811c710e6d2f1994a3dcf131

@Martymcfly24
I appreciate that's heavy reading.
Here is the summary.

open.substack.com/pub/mrandrewfox/p/questionable-counting?r=3f4rqi&utm_medium=ios

There's been a whole thread on that article go input on it there. I'm done with people condoning what's happening. I doubt you'll trust the sources we'll quote so what's the point.

We've done that bit already. The TL;DR is that biased sources with questionable methodology are of limited value.

@Dulra

@MissyB1 said
"Well I’ve heard the phrase “never again” more times than I could possibly count, but it’s happening again- in Gaza right now.'

Never again is in reference to the Holocaust. The above therefore clearly implies a holocaust is happening again, in Gaza right now. No?

I'm not saying what is going on isn't a tragedy. Its not as black and white as you are saying

It's not about terminology, as you say,

You are endorsing comments that clearly directly compare Gaza to the holocaust.
Just don't insult me by not recognising this to be true.

I am quite capable of reading the full report however as Dulra pointed out that report is by an anti Islamic group and has been discussed previously.

And as (s)he also says you won't trust whatever we post but suffice to say while innocent women and children are being murdered you will never be on the right side of history no matter what word games you play.

The state of Israel cannot exist on the basis of killing and expelling others.

There is a difference of opinion over what Never Again may mean to different people, and many around the world consider it to have a universalist meaning - that it asks the world to act to prevent all forms of genocide. There are international concerns that what is happening in Gaza may well be genocide - if there are concerns, then the world should act to investigate those concerns and prevent a possible genocide, not sit back and wait until things have gone too far. The world should act to prevent any genocides, wherever they may occur.

I didn't say all Catholics, or that there weren't times that Catholics supported Jews and actively helped them. Which of course is praised.
I'm saying that the Institution of the Church and Pope didn't exactly go out of their way:
There was no condemnation from the Church. Roman Jews were deported from the steps of the Vatican, while it stayed silent. There are examples of institutional collaboration.

Listen to Christopher Hitchens.
Or CHat GPT is there.

So that saying has been hijacked as well now! Brill.
Can't you lot make up your own sayings pls.

Never again" is a phrase or slogan which is associated with the lessons of the Holocaust and other genocides. The slogan was used by liberated prisoners at Buchenwald concentration camp to denounce fascism. It was popularized by Jewish Defense League founder Meir Kahane in his 1971 book, Never Again!

"The exact meaning of the phrase is debated, including whether it should be used as a particularistic command to avert a second Holocaust of Jews or whether it is a universalist injunction to prevent all forms of genocide."

If you had just copy and pasted a bit further down the Wikipedia page you quoted from you would see that the meaning is not clear cut.

Better tell the US Holocaust Memorial Museum (used the universalist message in previous work), the Bush administration and their allies, people who organised the commemorations of the Rwanda genocide, Zelenskyy, Elie Wiesel, and quite a few others that they've been using it wrong then.

@Martymcfly24

Word games?
Right side of history?
Challenging Hamas's numbers, which according to them and you, not one Hamas terrorist has died! That sounds plausible.

You believe what you want. I'm appalled at innocents dying!!! But I blame Hamas! Stop the human shield stuff, surrender and release the hostages. You have lost! What are they fighting for??! Any point that needed to be made has been made!

Obv they don't give a shite about their people. Everyone innocent that dies is another win for them. And your support only confirms and encourages their strategy.
If you can't see that then this is where this convo ends.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/14/israeli-forces-in-gaza-use-civilians-as-human-shields-against-possible-booby-trapsps

Human shields are really awful aren't they.
Thank goodness it's only Hamas use them.

So anyway, about those Christians in Bethlehem

I do not support Hamas.

You can read every one of my posts to see that and I would be very grateful if you could remove those accusations from the post.

@Martymcfly24
I don't believe you support Hamas. No sane person would. But in our exchanges, you have pretty much blamed Israel entirely and have not acknowledged Hamas role in this, or the evil ideology in their hearts.
By not calling them out imo you are endorsing their strategy, even if you don't think you are. And I don't mean to be patronising.
I'll try to amend my previous comment but I'm not sure how to.

The convo did deviate a bit. Apologies to anyone that had to endure that.
Happy Xmas to them and all, and let's hope for world peace in 2025.

That's fair if I haven't made it clear and as I said you are welcome to name search me because there are a couple of things I truly stand for.
Hamas are evil. Their methods and the actions of October 7th and with the hostages are never ever excusable and are abhorrent.
Israel has a right to exist.
What is happening at the moment is also inexcusable and abhorrent.

It's not that I am not calling them out it's that it's so obvious they are wrong I feel that is one thing we are all here on this board in agreement with .
I also think the actions of the IDF have long gone past self defense and are not just mass murder.

@Martymcfly24
Fair enough and understood. We both have our strong views which I suspect are a lot closer than this thread suggests.
We all want the same thing (I hope) and I pray it happens soon!

Tbf both individual Catholics and priests and cardinals participated in the holocaust. Equally some took action to save Jews and other victims of the holocaust. But the Catholic Church as a whole does have a history of supporting antisemitism.

Sadly now the church is doing very little to stand up for Christians in the Palestinian Territories and surrounding Arab countries. There are no more then a few hundred christians left in Gaza and many Christians have been forced out of Syria, Iraq, Lebanon and Jordan by Islamist terror groups. All of these countries pretty much ethnically cleansed their entire (ancient) indigenous Jewish populations
about 70 years ago and are now doing the same with the Christians. I would not like to be a Christian in the Middle East at the moment. There were anti Christian riots in Bethlehem by Islamist groups about a month ago. Generally the Palestinian Territories are a failed state and it's very difficult for anyone

What is remarkable is that you find it so difficult to get your head around. As I say, every Jewish event I have been too has included something about Palestinians. The Priest prepares his homily, it wasn't an off the cuff comment. He must have made an active decision to ignore the hostages.

Fair play to them. That makes sense given the ongoing genocide.

I believe people should be free to comment on whatever atrocities they like. You should try it sometime.

Back to the personal digs too.

You take a lot of comments personally. You've spent the last 12 hours complaining that a random priest didn't say what you insist he should have in his own parish church. I think my comment is a fair reflection of the views you have expressed on the matter.