Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East

Christmas in Bethlehem

250 replies

Auvergne63 · 23/12/2024 09:09

Another muted celebration in Bethlehem, Christ's birthplace for over 2 billions Christians.
https://international.la-croix.com/religion/in-bethlehem-a-christmas-marked-by-exhaustion-and-anxiety
The economic consequences of the "war" on this holy place are also staggering.
https://apnews.com/article/christmas-israel-palestinians-bethlehem-jesus-gaza-war-b508f651811c710e6d2f1994a3dcf131

In Bethlehem, a Christmas marked by exhaustion and anxiety

As Christmas approaches, the churches of Jerusalem have called on their faithful to show signs of Christian hope. But in Bethlehem, economically suffocating and clouded by uncertainty, anxiety about the future weighs heavily on people's hearts.

https://international.la-croix.com/religion/in-bethlehem-a-christmas-marked-by-exhaustion-and-anxiety

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
OpheliaWasntMad · 28/12/2024 20:56

Dulra · 28/12/2024 20:49

Oh @Du@Dulra
It’s obvious that you have a very one sided approach - which is why I would not expect you to understand my points
I think you are the one with a very one sided approach and you are not understanding my points. A priest is perfectly entitled to talk about who or what he wants in a homily and for all you know he spoke about the hostages at a different one, you haven't even heard the homily or know the priest but have decided to judge them regardless.

I suspect you are a name change and I'm pretty sure who.

Oh for goodness sake . 🙄
Really no point discussing with you .

ThisPearlPeer · 28/12/2024 20:58

@OpheliaWasntMad
I'm not talking about individual catholics, I'm talking about the Catholic Church as an institution, and its leader, the Pope's, active choices regarding Nazis and the murder of Jews.

I'm not sure when the truth became slanderous? what is it they say about facts and feelings?

Dulra · 28/12/2024 20:58

OpheliaWasntMad · 28/12/2024 20:56

Oh for goodness sake . 🙄
Really no point discussing with you .

Yep definitely sure now

Auvergne63 · 28/12/2024 20:59

stormy4319trevor · 28/12/2024 20:15

According to Gideon Levy, "Here's some good news coming straight from the killing fields: The Israel Defense Forces has built a holiday village on the Gaza coast. Sgt. Yaron Rabinovich ate some churritos and steak there earlier this week. " Bear in mind this is in a place where babies have frozen to death, the population is starving and health care has been destroyed. Full article in Haaretz, Dec26th 2024

Wtf?

OP posts:
OpheliaWasntMad · 28/12/2024 21:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

headstone · 28/12/2024 21:04

ThisPearlPeer, I do not understand your logic, You think the Pope is not aloud to show his upset about the bombing of children because some priests were Nazis in the past? Makes no sense, surely it’s better to learn from the mistakes of the past and speak out against genocide despite the enormous pressure not to.

Lalaloveya · 28/12/2024 21:04

OpheliaWasntMad · 28/12/2024 20:55

I don’t personally feel the need to mention the hostages every time Gazan victims are mentioned. Obviously in a discussion such as this you can have a particular focus .

However- I think a public statement from the pulpit has to be more even handed because of the context of the celebration of Mass.
I think it is right for a priest to mention the suffering of the Palestinians but also to mention the hostages and their families and to acknowledge that both sides have innocent victims.

So just to be clear, any time a priest wants to mention the latest Israeli atrocity in Gaza (the latest hospital destroyed, the latest tents burned with people inside, the latest apartment block full of families bombed etc) they must also mention the hostages?

Whatsinanamehey · 28/12/2024 21:08

stormy4319trevor · 28/12/2024 20:15

According to Gideon Levy, "Here's some good news coming straight from the killing fields: The Israel Defense Forces has built a holiday village on the Gaza coast. Sgt. Yaron Rabinovich ate some churritos and steak there earlier this week. " Bear in mind this is in a place where babies have frozen to death, the population is starving and health care has been destroyed. Full article in Haaretz, Dec26th 2024

I have seen videos of this and honestly it is really disturbing. I suppose you have to have an extremely high level of dissonance to carry out daily mass killings.

OpheliaWasntMad · 28/12/2024 21:11

Lalaloveya · 28/12/2024 21:04

So just to be clear, any time a priest wants to mention the latest Israeli atrocity in Gaza (the latest hospital destroyed, the latest tents burned with people inside, the latest apartment block full of families bombed etc) they must also mention the hostages?

If it’s a homily - then definitely yes

Lalaloveya · 28/12/2024 21:28

OpheliaWasntMad · 28/12/2024 21:11

If it’s a homily - then definitely yes

Remarkable.

ThisPearlPeer · 28/12/2024 21:45

headstone · 28/12/2024 21:04

ThisPearlPeer, I do not understand your logic, You think the Pope is not aloud to show his upset about the bombing of children because some priests were Nazis in the past? Makes no sense, surely it’s better to learn from the mistakes of the past and speak out against genocide despite the enormous pressure not to.

I didn't bring up the Pope, you did. And you held him up as some kind of ultimate, infallible force of goodness,' If Pope Francis says it, it must be true'...

Well I won't take his word as Gospel. History is littered with people that have been friends / allies / neighbours with the Jewish people, only to turn on them when it suits. Pretty much like is happening today from many quarters.
That's my logic, and we have learned from the past, the hard way.

And pls stop saying it's a few Catholics. It was THE Catholic Church, the institution, headed by the Pope, the decision maker.

Dulra · 28/12/2024 21:57

ThisPearlPeer · 28/12/2024 21:45

I didn't bring up the Pope, you did. And you held him up as some kind of ultimate, infallible force of goodness,' If Pope Francis says it, it must be true'...

Well I won't take his word as Gospel. History is littered with people that have been friends / allies / neighbours with the Jewish people, only to turn on them when it suits. Pretty much like is happening today from many quarters.
That's my logic, and we have learned from the past, the hard way.

And pls stop saying it's a few Catholics. It was THE Catholic Church, the institution, headed by the Pope, the decision maker.

Well I won't take his word as Gospel. History is littered with people that have been friends / allies / neighbours with the Jewish people, only to turn on them when it suits. Pretty much like is happening today from many quarters.
That's my logic, and we have learned from the past, the hard way
So I assume by that logic you do not trust anyone, friend or foe, unless they're Jewish?

ThisPearlPeer · 28/12/2024 22:19

@Dulra it means we are more aware of how things can change and maybe don't have 'blind' trust in say some countries / institutions / peoples that have turned on us in the past. So when the Pope says something, excuse me if I'm a bit sceptical.

Have you heard the phrase 'never again'? This is why it's imperative that the Sate of Israel exists, and has a right to exist.

OpheliaWasntMad · 28/12/2024 22:31

ThisPearlPeer · 28/12/2024 22:19

@Dulra it means we are more aware of how things can change and maybe don't have 'blind' trust in say some countries / institutions / peoples that have turned on us in the past. So when the Pope says something, excuse me if I'm a bit sceptical.

Have you heard the phrase 'never again'? This is why it's imperative that the Sate of Israel exists, and has a right to exist.

That’s absolutely understandable. I wouldn’t expect any non Catholic , never mind non Christian, to be too mindful of what the Pope says ( most Catholics don’t pay too much heed after all )
I can absolutely understand why Jewish people feel the need to protect their country although I cannot agree with the way Netanyahu has handled this conflict.

Martymcfly24 · 28/12/2024 22:35

ThisPearlPeer · 28/12/2024 22:19

@Dulra it means we are more aware of how things can change and maybe don't have 'blind' trust in say some countries / institutions / peoples that have turned on us in the past. So when the Pope says something, excuse me if I'm a bit sceptical.

Have you heard the phrase 'never again'? This is why it's imperative that the Sate of Israel exists, and has a right to exist.

This is why the military action in Gaza will never be a success for Israel and that will never wipe out Hamas.

Past shameful events have resulted in the feelings you describe in the Jewish Community. The intergenerational trauma and fear.

That very trauma is being created currently by the IDF in Gaza. Their actions now are the stories and folklore of the community in the future. You cannot bomb this away and is creating many more generations of those with an idealogy that aligns with Hamas (even if that is not the explicit name of the group)

Netanyahu and his government are making life more perilous for Jewish and Israeli people in the future.

OhMaria2 · 28/12/2024 22:38

SharonEllis · 24/12/2024 08:30

You are generalising. That is how it should be, theoretically, but we know the reality historically and now is persecution of Christians by Islamists in the Arab world.

Cool story. So does Israel. But we can't ever specifically discuss that

SharonEllis · 28/12/2024 22:40

OhMaria2 · 28/12/2024 22:38

Cool story. So does Israel. But we can't ever specifically discuss that

What can't we discuss?

MissyB1 · 28/12/2024 22:41

ThisPearlPeer · 28/12/2024 22:19

@Dulra it means we are more aware of how things can change and maybe don't have 'blind' trust in say some countries / institutions / peoples that have turned on us in the past. So when the Pope says something, excuse me if I'm a bit sceptical.

Have you heard the phrase 'never again'? This is why it's imperative that the Sate of Israel exists, and has a right to exist.

Well I’ve heard the phrase “never again” more times than I could possibly count, but it’s happening again- in Gaza right now.

OhMaria2 · 28/12/2024 22:42

MissyB1 · 28/12/2024 22:41

Well I’ve heard the phrase “never again” more times than I could possibly count, but it’s happening again- in Gaza right now.

Well said
Stop using never again as justification for atrocities.

ThisPearlPeer · 28/12/2024 22:54

@MissyB1
Well sorry if we're boring you with tales of mass murder...

What's happening in Gaza is no way a holocaust or genocide. Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true!
The holocaust was the systematic murder of 6m Jews (and others, who shouldn't be forgotten) with the explicit intention (note intention) to wipe all Jews off the face of the planet.
Not really the same is it... just ask the 2m Arabs / Muslims living in Israel as equal citizens.

stormy4319trevor · 28/12/2024 22:55

I'm a bit confused about the idea that the Catholic Church and Pope were assisting the holocaust. The Israeli historian, Pinchas Lapide, estimated that '..the Catholic Church, under the pontificate of Pius XII, may have saved 'at least 700,000, but probably as many as 860,000 Jews', during WW2.

Martymcfly24 · 28/12/2024 23:00

ThisPearlPeer · 28/12/2024 22:54

@MissyB1
Well sorry if we're boring you with tales of mass murder...

What's happening in Gaza is no way a holocaust or genocide. Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true!
The holocaust was the systematic murder of 6m Jews (and others, who shouldn't be forgotten) with the explicit intention (note intention) to wipe all Jews off the face of the planet.
Not really the same is it... just ask the 2m Arabs / Muslims living in Israel as equal citizens.

Call it a mass murder or a massacre then

Doesn't make it right.
It's still evil and wrong.

ThisPearlPeer · 28/12/2024 23:01

@MissyB1 - here they all come.
If you actually read the thread , I was responding to the question of trust, and the psychology behind it, much of which can be understood from the phrase of 'never again'.
That ok now?

It's getting a bit late to respond to silly comments like yours.

Dulra · 28/12/2024 23:09

ThisPearlPeer · 28/12/2024 22:54

@MissyB1
Well sorry if we're boring you with tales of mass murder...

What's happening in Gaza is no way a holocaust or genocide. Just because you keep saying it, doesn't make it true!
The holocaust was the systematic murder of 6m Jews (and others, who shouldn't be forgotten) with the explicit intention (note intention) to wipe all Jews off the face of the planet.
Not really the same is it... just ask the 2m Arabs / Muslims living in Israel as equal citizens.

No one said or compared it to the Holocaust.

I don't think any mass slaughter of innocent civilians should ever be overlooked because it is not comparable to the Holocaust.
It's 2024 we need to do better we need to protect innocent civilians especially children from this. The death rate is only one part of this, the suffering, torment, displacement, injuries, Gaza is home to the largest number of amputee children in modern history, getting worked up about terminology is pure distraction and a waste of time.

ThisPearlPeer · 28/12/2024 23:09

@Martymcfly24 , it is neither mass murder or a massacre. Im too tired to go through all the reasons / numbers. Can you just read this...

henryjacksonsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/HJS-Questionable-Counting-%E2%80%93-Hamas-Report-web-v2.pdf

And then we can discuss further