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Conflict in the Middle East

Christmas in Bethlehem

250 replies

Auvergne63 · 23/12/2024 09:09

Another muted celebration in Bethlehem, Christ's birthplace for over 2 billions Christians.
https://international.la-croix.com/religion/in-bethlehem-a-christmas-marked-by-exhaustion-and-anxiety
The economic consequences of the "war" on this holy place are also staggering.
https://apnews.com/article/christmas-israel-palestinians-bethlehem-jesus-gaza-war-b508f651811c710e6d2f1994a3dcf131

In Bethlehem, a Christmas marked by exhaustion and anxiety

As Christmas approaches, the churches of Jerusalem have called on their faithful to show signs of Christian hope. But in Bethlehem, economically suffocating and clouded by uncertainty, anxiety about the future weighs heavily on people's hearts.

https://international.la-croix.com/religion/in-bethlehem-a-christmas-marked-by-exhaustion-and-anxiety

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Scirocco · 29/12/2024 14:41

If people are going to make accusations about individuals, it might be useful to cite sources (and no, ChatGPT doesn't count).

ThisPearlPeer · 29/12/2024 14:42

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ThisPearlPeer · 29/12/2024 14:46

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ScrollingLeaves · 29/12/2024 15:38

ThisPearlPeer · 29/12/2024 13:07

@Scirocco and @ScrollingLeaves
The dream team..

"Better tell the US Holocaust Memorial Museum (used the universalist message in previous work), the Bush administration and their allies, people who organised the commemorations of the Rwanda genocide, Zelenskyy, Elie Wiesel, and quite a few others that they've been using it wrong then."

Bla bla

I think everybody knows that when a Jewish person, who first coined the phrase, says 'never again' they mean it specifically in reference to the holocaust. Which is why I said it. If that phrase has evolved and extended beyond that fine, but using it at almost a 'back at you' to ME, subverts its meaning in the context of this specific conversation.

I hope I put that eloquently enough for you

Re
The dream team comment,

That would be a compliment though I have to disagree about my part in the dream. Scirocco’s posts, like the one I was referring to before, are invariably based in good faith, good will, and are carefully thought out, with a level of human understanding not everyone has, including me. They set a high bar for any discussion to follow.

The next part of your post:

Bla bla

I think everybody knows…..

While not specifically about the very phrase, “never again”,
in regard to the Holocaust and the idea that it was so particularly horrific in its intentional, factory-system slaughtering of 6 milllion Jews that few or even, no, other mass killings of people should be compared with it - it is interesting to see that even The United States Holocaust Museum allows itself to use the Holocaust as a starting point against which to consider what similar atrocities might happen in other places to other people.

It does not reserve and separate The Holocaust as something altogether separate in its implications.

What have we learned about the risk factors and warning signs of genocide?
^The study of the Holocaust raises questions about how the world can recognize and respond to indications that a country is at risk for genocide or mass atrocity. While each genocide is unique, in most places where genocide occurs, there are common risk factors and warning signs.
Explore this question to learn how to identify these signs in today's world, as well as how they were present during the Holocaust and other genocides.^
https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/learn-about-genocide-and-other-mass-atrocities

This article also says,
In addition to genocide, there are a number of other large-scale, systematic crimes committed against civilian populations that fall under the category of “mass atrocities.” These crimes include crimes against humanity, war crimes, ethnic cleansing, and mass killing.

I personally do not think that the dreadful acts by the Israeli government and IDF against Gaza and Palestinian people are the same as those of the Nazis in the Holocaust. But in my view Israel is certainly committing a “mass atrocity”.

‘Never again’ would lack meaning if it only applies to Jewish fears of being annihilated during the Holocaust, or on Oct 7 which was described as a Holocaust or compared to it in some headlines, rather than also applying, possibly at least, to any people who experience atrocities enacted on them en mass in order to shut them down.

SharonEllis · 29/12/2024 16:01

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I agree with entirely, as my previous post was too.

ThisPearlPeer · 29/12/2024 16:23

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ThisPearlPeer · 29/12/2024 16:43

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SharonEllis · 29/12/2024 17:15

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Completely fine!

headstone · 29/12/2024 20:49

ThisPearlPeer, genocide in this case clearly isn’t a ridiculous notion or the ICC would have thrown out the case. Unfortunately genocides are only called as such after they have occurred.
The genocide case as put forward is just regarding Palestinians and not all Muslims. Sadly I think there is already enough evidence of this despite Israel attempting to cover it up. Whilst I think the word Holocaust should only refer to what happened in the 1930s and 40s, all genocides are horrific regardless of scale. Rather then just consider every country that believes it is a genocide and every individual as antisemite, maybe for once reflect on what Isreal is doing to their occupied people and why this has horrified so many people throughout the world from the Vatican through to South Africa. I fear ordinary Israelis are not aware of what their IDF is doing to civilian populations. I think the true horror simply isn’t reported as no one with any humanity would accept this.

BadgerInDungarees · 29/12/2024 21:00

And the last one chucked into the mix today, mass atrocities along with war crimes. I pray that the IDF are not committing heinous acts, under orders, implicitly or explicitly. I truly believe they are not, but if it turns out they are, I’ll be the first one to condemn! You can believe it if you like, I understand why people would think that way, but I will challenge people who currently state it as fact.

You don't believe apartheid and racial segregation is a heinous act? No matter what is happening in Gaza the IDF are well documented to be committing heinous acts. Children being physically and sexually abused in detention centres, heinous acts. Children being shoved in detention centres without trial or without a fair trial is a heinous act in itself. Protecting violent Israeli settlers as they commit pogroms is a heinous act. Their is no question that Israel and the IDF commit heinous acts and do so with extreme regularity, I mean there are no days off from days off from enforcing apartheid.

Why would you believe that when sent to Gaza heinous acts wouldn't take place when for decades it has been in their daily remit?

OpheliaWasntMad · 29/12/2024 21:10

BadgerInDungarees · 29/12/2024 21:00

And the last one chucked into the mix today, mass atrocities along with war crimes. I pray that the IDF are not committing heinous acts, under orders, implicitly or explicitly. I truly believe they are not, but if it turns out they are, I’ll be the first one to condemn! You can believe it if you like, I understand why people would think that way, but I will challenge people who currently state it as fact.

You don't believe apartheid and racial segregation is a heinous act? No matter what is happening in Gaza the IDF are well documented to be committing heinous acts. Children being physically and sexually abused in detention centres, heinous acts. Children being shoved in detention centres without trial or without a fair trial is a heinous act in itself. Protecting violent Israeli settlers as they commit pogroms is a heinous act. Their is no question that Israel and the IDF commit heinous acts and do so with extreme regularity, I mean there are no days off from days off from enforcing apartheid.

Why would you believe that when sent to Gaza heinous acts wouldn't take place when for decades it has been in their daily remit?

I do believe that IDF has done terrible terrible things. I think all armies eventually do terrible things because war traumatises and destroys people.
The real villains are the ones in charge who orchestrated or allowed all this to happen- Iran , Netanyahu, Hamas leadership.

Individual responsibility and culpability of course for any soldier who commits atrocities… but the main responsibility lies with leaders

ThisPearlPeer · 29/12/2024 23:34

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ThisPearlPeer · 29/12/2024 23:55

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ThisPearlPeer · 30/12/2024 00:02

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ThisPearlPeer · 30/12/2024 00:10

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Scirocco · 30/12/2024 00:11

ICC and ICJ processes are ongoing.

Holding a country to the same standards as other countries is not unreasonable. The fact that other countries and organisations may not adhere to those standards does not give anyone a free pass to violate international law.

Religious and ethnic inequality are widely recognised as common issues in Israel, both by internal and external bodies.

The Occupied Territories continue to experience oppression and segregation. 'Settlers' are provided with support, including weapons, with which to evict, attack, intimidate and kill Palestinians, and with which to attack and intimidate people who may try to stand up to them. Experts have described the actions of the Israeli forces, government and 'settlers' as apartheid. The Israeli government has been clear about its policies of expansion, continued occupation and annexation. The main party in the government was elected on a platform which included preventing a two-state solution. Other parties involved in the government have gone even further than that.

BadgerInDungarees · 30/12/2024 00:13

Of course apartheid and racial segregation is heinous!!! Who wouldn’t think that.
But Israel is neither of those things. As proved by the 2m Arabs / Muslims / Christians, all Israeli citizens, living peacefully together with full rights. And from personal experience having lived and worked there for a while. You must know this. This was all discussed at the very start of this conversation, a million posts ago. I know you have just jumped on this, but may be take a look a what's been discussed already.

@ThisPearlPeer You know and I both know that I am referring to the ICJ ruling of July of this year. If you are an apartheid denier then fine but don't expect others to be on board with that and not listen to the ICJs ruling which was pretty clear. I'm glad you agree with everyone that is apartheid and racial segregation is heinous though, maybe someday you will be accept that the country you clearly have deep feelings for are responsible for such awful suffering but I understand that right now you aren't in that place.

You say it’s a daily remit?!! Really? Is it?? Believe it you want, go ahead. Nothing l or anyone else can say will change your mind

Again until you are ready to accept what Israel are doing I get that you won't agree. It's OK and yes, I understand that nothing anyone can say to you will change your mind. It is difficult thing that you are going to have to come to terms with and it will only happen in your own time when you feel ready.

user243245346 · 30/12/2024 00:21

There's no apartheid or racial segregation in Israel. It's the only place in the Middle East where Christians, Jews, Muslims, Druze and other minorities can live together in peace. It's also by far the best place in the Middle East for women and gay people. The Palestinian Territories sadly do not share this record.

Scirocco · 30/12/2024 00:22

Their occupied status has been a real contributing factor to that.

BadgerInDungarees · 30/12/2024 00:23

user243245346 · 30/12/2024 00:21

There's no apartheid or racial segregation in Israel. It's the only place in the Middle East where Christians, Jews, Muslims, Druze and other minorities can live together in peace. It's also by far the best place in the Middle East for women and gay people. The Palestinian Territories sadly do not share this record.

Yes, Israel are guilty of apartheid and racial segregation in the OPT. That is what the ICJ ruled in July. Like you say they don't do it in Israel only the Palestinian territories.

JRSKSSBH · 30/12/2024 00:34

OchaLove · 24/12/2024 08:23

This is such a propaganda piece to create division between Muslims and Christians. I'm especially appalled at this part:

"These conditions incentivize radicalization and terrorism—families of suicide bombers receive a monetary stipend. Christians have borne the brunt of the hardship, often living as second class citizens beholden to an Islamic government which rejects and despises the heart of Christianity—a Jewish Messiah. Many are fleeing. and as a shrinking minority they are subject to persecution."

No, not true. Even a basic search shows you this is not true and I find it unbelievable how they blatantly lie in the article. Here is some basic search on how Islam observes Jesus Christ:

"In Islam, Jesus is considered a prophet and messenger of God, and is referred to as the Messiah (al-Masih):

Birth
Muslims believe Jesus was born to the virgin Mary. The Quran describes Jesus's birth as his first miracle, when he spoke in the cradle and declared himself a prophet.

Miracles
The Quran describes Jesus performing miracles, such as healing lepers, giving sight to the blind, and raising the dead.

Death
Muslims believe Jesus was not crucified or resurrected, but was instead miraculously saved by God and ascended into heaven.

Return
Muslims believe Jesus will return to Earth before the Day of Judgment to defeat the Antichrist and restore justice.

Relationship to Mary
Mary is considered one of the most pure and exalted women in creation. The Quran names an entire chapter after her, and she is the only woman to be mentioned by name in the Quran.

Relationship to Muhammad
Muhammad is considered the successor to Jesus.

Relationship to the Quran
The Quran mentions Jesus with various titles and places him among the greatest prophets. The Quran also discusses Jesus's teachings, which are referred to as al-Injīl (the Gospel).

Muslims recite "peace be upon him" after referring to Jesus by name, just as they do with other prophets."

Nice of you to completely miss the point being made, namely how Christians are treated by Muslims in Bethlehem. Perhaps you could describe how the Quran tells Muslims to treat non-Muslims?

OchaLove · 30/12/2024 03:42

JRSKSSBH · 30/12/2024 00:34

Nice of you to completely miss the point being made, namely how Christians are treated by Muslims in Bethlehem. Perhaps you could describe how the Quran tells Muslims to treat non-Muslims?

Every religion has radicalism, violence and treatment of women as less than men in its texts. What is your point? Because some radical idiots do something should we consider all Muslims as radicals and try to exterminate them? Why are you trying to spread hate?

OchaLove · 30/12/2024 04:12

Also, as a specific answer to your question, here is what Quran tells about non-Muslims in Kafirun Ayat 6:

"O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."

I said before, I'm from a Muslim background (Sunni sect) but I'm not a practicing person. If I have to categorize myself, I'd say I'm a deist rather than practicing any religion. Having said that, in Muslim religion if you'd ask anyone of what they think of non-Muslims, they will tell you the last portion above "For you is your religion, and for me is my religion". This is an agreement on disagreement. This has been the core practice in Ottoman Empire for 600 years where non-Muslims were free to practice their own religions and were subject to their own religious regulations (laws).

EasterIssland · 30/12/2024 07:42

user243245346 · 30/12/2024 00:21

There's no apartheid or racial segregation in Israel. It's the only place in the Middle East where Christians, Jews, Muslims, Druze and other minorities can live together in peace. It's also by far the best place in the Middle East for women and gay people. The Palestinian Territories sadly do not share this record.

There might not be in Israel. Doesn’t meant that Israel is not responsible of apartheid

In a historic ruling the International Court of Justice has found multiple and serious international law violations by Israel towards Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including, for the first time, finding Israel responsible for apartheid. The court has placed responsibility with all states and the United Nations to end these violations of international law. The ruling should be yet another wake up call for the United States to end its egregious policy of defending Israel’s oppression of Palestinians and prompt a thorough reassessment in other countries as well."

PeasfullPerson · 30/12/2024 10:46

‘Survey participants were also questioned on their perceptions regarding equal opportunities for Jews and Arabs, particularly in the employment, education, and health sectors. Results found that 85% of Arabs believed there to be a societal gap, with only 62% of Jews agreeing.
The survey further showed that nearly half of Israeli Arabs feel there has been a decline in public support for equalitybetween Arabs and Jews since the establishment of the current government, with 35% of Jews surveyed agreeing.’

m.jpost.com/israel-news/culture/article-835334

Equality Articles and latest stories | The Jerusalem Post

Breaking news about Equality from The Jerusalem Post. Read the latest updates on Equality including articles, videos, opinions and more.

https://m.jpost.com/tags/equality

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