"If its true that more than 100 women and children died", then "Israel violated International Law" during hostage rescue, says former executive director of Human Rights Watch

[HelenHen]

This is a very good read and seems to address many issues that were raised in other threads. Written by Kenneth Roth, former executive director of Human Rights Watch (1993-2022)

"International humanitarian law requires that a military refrain from launching an assault if the anticipated civilian toll “would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated”. It is reasonable to conclude that the Israeli operation fell short of this standard"

"International humanitarian law requires militaries to take “all feasible precautions” to spare civilians, which Hamas violated by holding the hostages in two apartment buildings in Nuseirat, but that does not relieve Israel of the separate duty to avoid an attack that causes disproportionate harm to civilians. Palestinian civilians do not stop being civilians just because they are endangered by Hamas."

"The duty to take all feasible precautions also applies to the Israeli military. One obvious precaution is to launch military operations at a time of day when fewer civilians are present, but the Israeli military launched the rescue operation shortly before noon, hoping to surprise Hamas, which would have expected a night-time operation. That may have made the operation safer for the Israeli soldiers involved, but it transferred the risk to the many Palestinian civilians who were out and about in the middle of the day, particularly in the nearby market, greatly increasing the death toll"

"What were the “dozens of nearby targets” that the Israel air force attacked? Was it able to strike Hamas fighters with any precision in the chaos of that moment? Or did it simply drop bombs in the vicinity, hoping to clear a path for the rescuers to flee despite the area being filled with civilians? We don’t know, but an independent investigation is clearly needed. Indiscriminate attacks are a war crime."

"While soldiers are allowed to engage in ruses – for example, feinting left while going right – they are not allowed to pretend to be a protected person, such as a civilian, because it endangers civilians when hostile forces cannot distinguish them from opposing military forces. That is why soldiers in combat wear uniforms."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/13/international-criminal-court-investigation-israel-hostage-rescue-raid

For the record, because you keep snipping at me with what you think are gotchas

I do not support Israel's actions in Gaza. The death toll is horrendous. Their leadership are batshit, terrible people. I hope they are investigated for war crimes and dealt with appropriately and the country gets new, more moderate leadership as soon as possible. Hamas are also horrendous, terrible people and I hope they fuck off out of Gaza into oblivion as soon as possible.

But despite not supporting Israel, I am not going to let my brain fall out of my head and swallow every single bit of anti-Israel messaging that is pumped onto my social media. Hence me challenging stuff like people posting Hamas propaganda uncritically.

There is a propaganda war going on and people should be sceptical of everything. Even if it comes from the former Director of Human Rights Watch. Follow the links, check what is being said.

And this propaganda was is not just about Israel, it's about the west.

I believe the numbers should not be disputed unless there is evidence to say they are incorrect.

Humanity is doomed.

By the same token, neither can numbers from the Hamas run Gaza Health Ministry be accepted as evidence.

Indeed, Associated Press had quite the detailed article on numbers discrepancies from Hamas recently.

As I said before, numbers of dead and injured by status is for after a conflict free of the fog of war. Not during it.

Israel should let independent observers in.

As I said before, numbers of dead and injured by status is for after a conflict free of the fog of war. Not during it.

Don't agree. Maybe you are talking about military lives there? But no way should there not be verification of how many civilians are being killed or injured until after a war. There has to be checks to make sure one side is not completely obliterating the civilians on the other (I'm speaking hypothetically here to make my point)

Apologies for that appearing 3 times no idea how it happened I'll get 2 of them deleted

Yes, and it's entirely valid to question anything that comes from Hamas as well as Israel on this point.

Associated Press did an article that should give everyone food for thought irrespective of who you stand with in the war.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-casualties-toll-65e18f3362674245356c539e4bc0b67a

It underscores the difficulty in getting numbers, verifying them and putting them into specific contexts. This particular war is not the same as the Russia-Ukraine war. Actually, I don't think there's a suitable war that actually compares to this - not even past wars in the same region. As far as warfare goes, this one is revolutionising it which will be felt in many ways for decades to come similar to how WW2 changed many things.

As per AP, the numbers of women and children being killed is going down from 64% in October 2023 to 38% in March 2024. More men are being killed, BTW. One of the things this shows is the change in tactics from the Israel Defence Force.

But overall numbers in this war is really for afterwards. Even then, it'll take years to properly collate, verify and analyse. It's why I don't usually comment on these other than to point out the Gaza Health Ministry is controlled by Hamas.

The ‘confirmation’ of numbers is for after the war, but as @Dulra has said numbers do still matter, and it would be easier to get a better idea of what is going on if independent observers and journalists were able to be in Gaza.

The secrecy stinks.

Thank you for this link. It's a very interesting read.

As welcome as it is that, in percentage terms, less children are being killed we all know they will be more negatively impacted by the lack of humanitarian aid, malnourishment, disease and also the negative impact trauma has on a child's development and the long-term impact of trauma.

So is suggesting that international and independent journalists and observers be allowed to work safely spreading propaganda?

You still didn't answer my question.

Reality is we generally get more authoritative, reliable figures after conflicts.

This particular war is very different to any in the 20th Century to now. This is the first major conflict involving such extensive use of underground tunnels which also breached the prohibition of placing military objects very close to or right in civilian areas, for example.

This kind of warfare, unfortunately, is here to stay. In time, everything relating to it will improve - IHL, tactics, strategies, numbers of dead & injured, etc.

The level of deaths caused due to inhumane conditions is also something that is more relevant to modern warfare and that makes counting deaths more difficult. According to the UN.

Really I’m more interested in discussing the human tragedy of war, my main concerns is the unnecessary suffering and deaths of people who just want to live a *normal life.

I also suspect the Israeli state has had to rein things in a bit due to international pressure.

I believe the numbers should not be disputed unless there is evidence to say they are incorrect.

I can't agree. There won't be any evidence either way at present, or for a long time. And I can't accept as fact, reports from a terrorist group with an agenda.

Ok if that's what you want to focus on.

Do you agree that international reporters and observers should be allowed to do their jobs safely, so that the figures cannot be disputed (among other things)?

Do you agree that international reporters and observers should be allowed to do their jobs safely, so that the figures cannot be disputed (among other things)?

Yes, although probably from a range of backgrounds to minimise bias accusations.

Thank you. Yes I would agree with that.

It would solve a lot of our debates if there were independent observers.

You read but you do not understand.

Do I want independent journalists in there to referee the truth? I want everyone responsible for the whole sorry mess to be put onto a rocket and fired into the sun.

Put in independent observers, sure, I am not entirely sure why you think I should think otherwise, particularly given what I've written.

@noblegiraffe Perhaps it wasn’t your intention, but that you ignored the question, and a point that was repeatedly made about Israel allowing in independent journalists and observers, did come across as thought you didn’t want this issue to be discussed.

Just because I asked and you didn't answer. It seemed like you were evading and I wasn't sure why.

But thank you for clarifying and apologies for nagging.

Because I was trying to answer every single little question that you keep throwing at me all in one go to try to get it over and done with. My answer answered your question and all the others. So if you intend to ask me, from now on, anything like 'do you support genocide' or 'do you think killing civilians is bad?' Or 'do you think independent journalists should be allowed to report on the war?', I'm not going to bother answering, not because I'm 'evading the question' but because I am totally and utterly fed up with the facile nature of these interactions.

Israel have violated international law since year zero.