"If its true that more than 100 women and children died", then "Israel violated International Law" during hostage rescue, says former executive director of Human Rights Watch

[HelenHen]

This is a very good read and seems to address many issues that were raised in other threads. Written by Kenneth Roth, former executive director of Human Rights Watch (1993-2022)

"International humanitarian law requires that a military refrain from launching an assault if the anticipated civilian toll “would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated”. It is reasonable to conclude that the Israeli operation fell short of this standard"

"International humanitarian law requires militaries to take “all feasible precautions” to spare civilians, which Hamas violated by holding the hostages in two apartment buildings in Nuseirat, but that does not relieve Israel of the separate duty to avoid an attack that causes disproportionate harm to civilians. Palestinian civilians do not stop being civilians just because they are endangered by Hamas."

"The duty to take all feasible precautions also applies to the Israeli military. One obvious precaution is to launch military operations at a time of day when fewer civilians are present, but the Israeli military launched the rescue operation shortly before noon, hoping to surprise Hamas, which would have expected a night-time operation. That may have made the operation safer for the Israeli soldiers involved, but it transferred the risk to the many Palestinian civilians who were out and about in the middle of the day, particularly in the nearby market, greatly increasing the death toll"

"What were the “dozens of nearby targets” that the Israel air force attacked? Was it able to strike Hamas fighters with any precision in the chaos of that moment? Or did it simply drop bombs in the vicinity, hoping to clear a path for the rescuers to flee despite the area being filled with civilians? We don’t know, but an independent investigation is clearly needed. Indiscriminate attacks are a war crime."

"While soldiers are allowed to engage in ruses – for example, feinting left while going right – they are not allowed to pretend to be a protected person, such as a civilian, because it endangers civilians when hostile forces cannot distinguish them from opposing military forces. That is why soldiers in combat wear uniforms."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jun/13/international-criminal-court-investigation-israel-hostage-rescue-raid

Were the deaths in Israeli territory? Why would we accept the figures given by the side doing the killing? Also did the Israeli state deal with the aftermath and all the bodies?

Please think about the statement you just made. It's actually quite upsetting.

Right, so you are sceptical of the Israeli figures even thought they've been reported internationally. Which is absolutely fine. Of course they have reasons to play down the figures.

But if you don't suspect that Hamas has any reason to play up the figures, then you seem pretty naive.

Propaganda comes from both sides in a conflict.

So international reporters and observers should be allowed in to do their work safely 🤷‍♀️ it's a really simple answer

Saying that it's upsetting that I don't automatically accept the figures put out by a terrorist organisation is mad though.

Upsetting that you take the time to argue whether a significant number of dead women and children is high enough to be over 100.

Do you agree that if international journalists and observers were allowed to work safely and report the facts, that it would be in everyone's best interest?

Time will tell us, and while numbers may be disputed, that the level of suffering has been too much is in my eyes not up for debate.

Here is an article published by The Lancet Group.

‘No evidence of inflated mortality reporting from the Gaza Ministry of Health’

Benjamin Q Huynh
Elizabeth T Chin
Paul B Spiegel

Published:December 06, 2023

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext

And yes, if Israel believes the numbers are being *inflated they could solve this by letting independent bodies and agencies in.

Eh? It's the guy in the article that you linked to yourself who used the word 'if' about the figures.

I think the suggestion that only Israel has any issue with accepting without question the figures coming from a terrorist organisation is a bit suspect.

I think it's perfectly fair to question casualty numbers if the source is Hamas, which I've said on previous threads. That shouldn't upset anyone, and it shouldn't lead to deletions.
Hamas have both form for it, and an obvious motivation for doing so.

Did the Israeli government process the bodies? Were the bodies on Israeli soil?

How would the Israeli government even be allowed to report the figures if it happened on foreign soil?

You know that Hamas are a proscribed terrorist organisation, yes?

I have asked mumsnet to edit the title to include quotes so that there can be no accusations of me posting in bad faith.

I'm sorry if the title was misleading. That was not my intention.

Thankfully they have also deleted downnatives personal attack on me. It was quite a leap.

No you misunderstand. Israel are the ones that are implicated in the deaths, they are the ones that are most impacted, from a propaganda and legal perspective, if there is a misreporting of the numbers.

If the numbers are inflated they have the most to gain from allowing independent observers in.

If Israel has something to hide then they benefit from the secrecy.

Surely most people question numbers from both side as they've clearly got reasons to lie! That can't be controversial. Questioning figures isn't saying"is it enough suffering" the level of suffering is horrendous

I agree with both the things you have said there @drowninginsick

What unfortunately happens is that some posters would rather focus on disputing numbers, which then shifts attention away from recognising that the human level of suffering is too much. Comments about the human cost of acts are often ignored, and showing empathy has you categorised as being a ‘useful idiot’ for Hamas.

Anyone who can't see the devastating human affect of all this must be off their rocker. I understand that some may blame Hamas or Israel more but anyone who can see what's happening to those children and not recognise the devastation is beyond help

What unfortunately happens is that some posters would rather focus on disputing numbers

There is plenty of discussion of the awfulness of it all.

Helenhen was the one who started the discussion about whether the numbers were disputed.

And the fact that she then said the numbers should not be disputed is definitely worth discussing.

Do you think that Hamas propaganda should be taken as fact?

Do you think that Hamas propaganda should be taken as fact?

Nothing that comes out of Gaza from the IDF or Hamas should be taken as fact. There is though many independent eye witness reports from international doctors and humanitarian aid workers that can be better trusted.

Nothing that comes out of Gaza from the IDF or Hamas should be taken as fact.

Glad to hear it. I hope @HelenHen takes note.

@noblegiraffe if you're going to press home a point with me, can you please answer this?

We definitely shouldn’t take any information presented by either Israel or Hamas as fact.

Let the independent observers in.

My comment about the numbers was in response to Downnatives now deleted post.

I believe the numbers should not be disputed unless there is evidence to say they are incorrect. Lover numbers provided by the state who did the killings cannot be accepted as evidence because they have no legitimate way of verifying those numbers on foreign soil. They did not recover or account for the bodies.